[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

This thread has spoilers for Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. If that bothers you, exit thread now.


I'm beginning my reread of HoC, and hace gotten to the part of Karsa's raping and pillaging of the other Teblor tribes. This made me think about the only other series I've read where a protagonist is a rapist, The Covenant books by Stephen R. Donaldson.

One of the main criticisms of SRD that I've heard on these forums and elsewhere is that they can't get over the rape of Elena, and it ruined the series for them. I've heard several people say they quit reading at that scene, as it completely turned them against Covenant. This is understandable, but what i find interesting is that the same reaction doesn't happen with Karsa.

There are plenty of Karsa haters out there, but typically that dislike comes from the fact that he is a prick and says witness too much. I don't know if I've ever heard anyone say they dislike him because he is a rapist. I certainly have never heard anyone who quit reading SE because of the rape. Why is this? Why is it so much more unacceptable for Covenant to do it than Karsa?

The argument could be made that Karsa is actually more unforgivable. He is a serial rapist, glorifying in it and the humiliation it brings to the women he violates. Covenant does it once, in a world he doesn't yet believe is real, and is immediately remorseful and disgusted with himself. (Not that this excuses him for his actions, that's not what I'm saying.) Karsa is also not content with merely physically violating his victims, he also feels the need to taunt them and even impregnate them. Why is Karsa so much more acceptable to readers than Covenant?

Anyone have anything to say about this? Why do you think this is the case?

[HoosierDaddy]

I think the difference is quite easy to discern. Karsa is viewed as a barbarian in HoC, and, well still is viewed as a barbarian. Barbarians do terrible awful things because they are barbaric. This isn't untypical behavior.

Covenant comes from modern day Western Civilization where rape is the second or third worst crime a person can commit (murder, child molestation (or is that rape as well)). Anyways, it is much more distressing to see someone who could be your next door neighbor commit rape simply because he's functional again. Through the prism of the reader, Covenant is us. We identify ourselves with him easily. That is the opposite of Karsa.

That's my though on it anyways.

I also found it quite disgusting, but the whole imaginary world and his obvious self disgust allowed me to forgive him.

Spoiler

Also the fact that it comes back to haunt him in Elena adds to the fact that he should be forgiven.

[Illuyankas]

Well, for a start, Karsa is not human. He's also not the main focus of the series, not a 'good guy' as such, and is at that point a socially isolated backward hick - as he progressively gets more cosmopolitan (never thought I'd be using that word in a discussion about Karsa) he exceeds his societal beginnings and grows into a more filled out character who actually shows regret for his past actions. This was not worded well, but you get the point.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

HoosierDaddy;341808 said:

I think the difference is quite easy to discern. Karsa is viewed as a barbarian in HoC, and, well still is viewed as a barbarian. Barbarians do terrible awful things because they are barbaric. This isn't untypical behavior.

Covenant comes from modern day Western Civilization where rape is the second or third worst crime a person can commit (murder, child molestation (or is that rape as well)). Anyways, it is much more distressing to see someone who could be your next door neighbor commit rape simply because he's functional again. Through the prism of the reader, Covenant is us. We identify ourselves with him easily. That is the opposite of Karsa.

That's my though on it anyways.

I also found it quite disgusting, but the whole imaginary world and his obvious self disgust allowed me to forgive him.

Spoiler

Also the fact that it comes back to haunt him in Elena adds to the fact that he should be forgiven.

That's a good point. I'm sure that logic plays into it, but I think that logic is flawed. Does a disgusting act become any less disgusting just because a person's society sees it as acceptable? Obviously to that person it does, but to us as observers, coming from the society we do, I think a barbarian raping someone should be viewed just as harshly.

Quote

Well, for a start, Karsa is not human. He's also not the main focus of the series, not a 'good guy' as such, and is at that point a socially isolated backward hick - as he progressively gets more cosmopolitan (never thought I'd be using that word in a discussion about Karsa) he exceeds his societal beginnings and grows into a more filled out character who actually shows regret for his past actions. This was not worded well, but you get the point.

True, Karsa is not human, but close enough for us to judge his actions as if he were. He's a sentient humanoid, not a dog or demon or something terribly different from us. Covenant also grows as a person an character, and also shows regret for his actions-probably more so than Karsa does.

[HoosierDaddy]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;341817 said:

That's a good point. I'm sure that logic plays into it, but I think that logic is flawed. Does a disgusting act become any less disgusting just because a person's society sees it as acceptable? Obviously to that person it does, but to us as observers, coming from the society we do, I think a barbarian raping someone should be viewed just as harshly.

From all evidence it does because you haven't seen the outrage from fans against Karsa, right?

Imagine if Fiddler raped somone. I'm sure that would create a hell of a lot of controversy.

Look at the horrors that are committed in Wu that are sometimes funny:

Spoiler

Hetan's squad cutting off all the heads in Reaper's Gale and putting them on a table.

.

Good god, just look at the Silanah for God's sake and that macabre show.

Spoiler

It drove Rake's family crazy!

.

Perhaps it comes down to the fact that Erikson has prepared us for the atrocities that are commited before he really hits us with them as compared to Covenant raping a woman the instant the actual "fantasy" novel begins.

I also begin to question whether or not Karsa is a protaganist. As Illuyankas stated, Karsa grows into someone less barbaric and someone who actually has a very noble purpose in wanting to free others from their unwanted bonds. But in the beginning he was at best an anti-hero and at worst an antagonist.

[Salt-Man Z]

Covenant is an average-Joe, Western-world white guy. So of course he's held to different standards than a primitive barbarian giant.

I say that only partially tongue-in-cheek. Judging other cultures by your own moral standards just isn't politically correct. "Well, that's just how his people do things, so I guess that's okay."

On the other hand, the stories' settings likely plays a significant role. Donaldson's Land is (in the first trilogy, at least) a kind of fantasy paradise, and Covenant's act is in direction contrast to the world he's found himself in. Erikson's world, however, is vicious and brutal, and what Karsa does in HoC isn't really anything out of the ordinary. Also, Covenant rapes Lena early on in the series, which may be shock to many first-time readers. By contrast, by the time we get to Karsa's adventures, readers have (more than likely) already spent 3 huge volumes in Erikson's world.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

All excellent points. I would disagree with one though, that Karsa is not a protagonist. He certainly is in HoC, and even in other books. Not THE protagonist of the whole series like Covenent, but then, the Malazan books don't even really have one protagonist.

[HoosierDaddy]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;341834 said:

All excellent points. I would disagree with one though, that Karsa is not a protagonist. He certainly is in HoC, and even in other books. Not THE protagonist of the whole series like Covenent, but then, the Malazan books don't even really have one protagonist.

Fair enough. However, I just have a hard time, on my own, finding a blood-thirsty, barbaric rapist to be a protaganist. I think he grew into one by the end, but at the beginning I just don't think so. Agree to disagree?

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Certainly.

[HoosierDaddy]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;341840 said:

Certainly.

Ah. Well and good!

[karsafan]

i like karsa. he at least grows to become a dynamic character and as stated earlier regrets his past actions and realizes the wrong in them. he actually becomes later....in a brutal kind of way...a considerably noble non-malazan. also, SE makes it sound as though he will eventually cull the brutality out of his people and bring enlightenment to them....before conquering everything.

[HoosierDaddy]

karsafan;341976 said:

i like karsa. he at least grows to become a dynamic character and as stated earlier regrets his past actions and realizes the wrong in them. he actually becomes later....in a brutal kind of way...a considerably noble non-malazan. also, SE makes it sound as though he will eventually cull the brutality out of his people and bring enlightenment to them....before conquering everything.

I think he wants to Witness to a lot of children still. However, wherever injustice rears it's ugly head, Karsa shall say Witness!, and he'll be there.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

As I progress through HoC, I'm remembering better how how Karsa does indeed become a more likable guy. Iirc, he even swears off raping, which is a good thing.

[Zanth13]

Not defending it, but raping was the norm it appears for the teblor


those women were not suprised by what was coming, its like they expected it, and maybe even welcomed it....

the whole strongest alpha male gets to plant his seed type thing...

[Sinisdar Toste]

the best thing about karsa's arc can be illustrated by contrasting two scenes.

when he and bairoth and delum discover the cave where their peoples tale of descent and isolation by icarium is recorded, karsa flies into a rage and declares that the words are meaningless and insane. refuting the true history of his people and reinforcing the chains on him.

compare this to the scene where he meets his 'gods' and makes his flint sword. he is willing and eager to cut past his traditional inbred beliefs to break his chains and accepts all that he once denied.

edit @Zanth, all part of iccy's plan.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I guess this whole discussion raises the idea of when condemnation of a different culture's practices is racist and ethnocentric, versus when those practices are so distasteful that it is acceptable to disapprove.

[Sinisdar Toste]

to which i respond, in the words of scholar janath, moral relativism is a farce.
there are certain actions that are wrong, no matter how they are perceived by different cultures. karsa rapes and pillages, and the humans believe he is wrong, the teblor however approve. karsa over time, becomes enlightened and comes to morality. even the most depraved of bloodwood addicts can come around

i believe morality is intractable, in case you didn't notice.

[amphibian]

I think Covenant's rape was stranger of the two (as "normal" as rape gets) because he did it to test whether or not he was actually there and/or had been cured of his leprosy.

To me it came off as the raging of an extremely selfish person purposely trying to destroy something innocent, as opposed to Karsa's fulfillment of his lifelong fantasy (to wreck the other Teblors' shit), which just told him that was the next box on the list to check off after killing the village men.

My reaction to both was pretty similar, but I didn't have any problems reading on. They're certainly disturbing scenes to read, but nowhere near the levels that Chuck Palahniuk's Guts gets to.

[Sinisdar Toste]

or that place were not supposed to talk a/b/out.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

amphibian;342027 said:

I think Covenant's rape was stranger of the two (as "normal" as rape gets) because he did it to test whether or not he was actually there and/or had been cured of his leprosy.

I think that makes it sound more calculated than it really was. There wasn't the thought process there that it seems you are implying. Not that that makes it any less repugnant. It was an animalistic, violent lapse in thought and character.

Karsa, on the other hand, in a systematic and calculated fashion raped an entire village, deliberately impregnating his victims to solidify his domination of them. Of course, this was before his epiphany that maybe he shouldn't rape people any more.