[Pig Iron]

You basically said that already, but Karsa evolves. In the end of HoC he says something about mercy being the only great thing or some such, and he comes to hate oppression of all kinds. He goes through quite a lot of suffering before that.

SDs Gap-cycle is even more extreme in that regard (about rape and whether forgiveness and redemption is possible at all).

Both these authors are male, it should perhaps be added.

[amphibian]

Pig Iron;342287 said:

Both these authors are male, it should perhaps be added.

If I remember aright, the Clan of the Cave Bear series by Jean Auel had a few rapes and they weren't dramatically different from Erikson's or Donaldson's scenes.

I can't recall a rape scene in Ursula LeGuin's work or in Robin Hobb.

[HoosierDaddy]

While we are on the subject of rape, I have a different question for you all:

Reaper's Gale spoilers here:

Spoiler

Which was worse, Karsa's rape of the two women in that village or Semar Dev's mental raping of Udinaas so she could find out what's happening in Reaper's Gale? Semar Dev immediately realizes how invasive and terrible it was, unlike Karsa who takes a little while to get humanized.

[Salt-Man Z]

amphibian;342291 said:

I can't recall a rape scene in Ursula LeGuin's work or in Robin Hobb.

Hobb's Liveship Traders. That series reminded me a lot of the Gap Cycle, actually.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

HoosierDaddy;342302 said:

While we are on the subject of rape, I have a different question for you all:

Reaper's Gale spoilers here:

Spoiler

Which was worse, Karsa's rape of the two women in that village or Semar Dev's mental raping of Udinaas so she could find out what's happening in Reaper's Gale? Semar Dev immediately realizes how invasive and terrible it was, unlike Karsa who takes a little while to get humanized.

I would say to us, Karsa is worse, since the other isn't something that can really happen. In the context of the story though, and to Udi., they're pretty close.

[HoosierDaddy]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;342334 said:

I would say to us, Karsa is worse, since the other isn't something that can really happen. In the context of the story though, and to Udi., they're pretty close.

Huh. To me the other seems worse, but I guess that's because I'm coming from the whole "more civilized" viewpoint.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Karsa later on. Future book spoilers:

Spoiler

Specifically in his return to the Laederon Plateau in TTH. How much Karsa's exposure to the ouside world and his various experiences changed the way he views his own people?

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Gaaaah! When you said future books I didn't expect TtH spoilers!

[HoosierDaddy]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;342380 said:

Gaaaah! When you said future books I didn't expect TtH spoilers!

Oh, well... Hmm. I didn't really spoil anything though did I. Have you read through Reaper's Gale? If not, then my bad I should have been more specific. This is why laziness is bad, I should have said which specific books I was spoiling.

[Aptorian]

Karsa is a Barbarian. When you tell a character is a barbarian I immediatly expect tons of "western no-no's". Might makes right in their world.

On the other hand, I found it much more despicable when he "poisons" the human woman in the City with Blood oil when he rapes her. Thaat woman probably didn't survive...

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

HoosierDaddy;342434 said:

Oh, well... Hmm. I didn't really spoil anything though did I. Have you read through Reaper's Gale? If not, then my bad I should have been more specific. This is why laziness is bad, I should have said which specific books I was spoiling.

I've read RG. It's not a big deal. I don't even remember what you had under that tag anymore. And I should be getting TtH tomorrow!

@Apt: Yeah, that was harsh to read. He's not a nice guy in the front half of that book.

[Daemon_Monkey]

In both of the books it hasn't been the rape itself which made me dislike the characters. I've felt that a much bigger problem with Karsa is his blatant hypocrisy.

Spoiler

In RG for example he criticises others for being cruel or tyrannical because they are stronger (or something like that) when he has been doing that for 3 books straight as well as numerous smaller things

. In CoTC i felt the biggest problem with Covenant is the fact that his character doesnt change for 2 1/2 books, it get's damned frustrating.

Edit:Admittedly minor spoiler hidden!

[HoosierDaddy]

Spoiler that!

Well, Covenant is in denial until the third book of that series, so of course he doesn't really change. His "deal" is that as long as it's really not happening he can maintain. Forcing himself to not be in denial would have broke the deal he made with himself, thus radically changing the stories.

2nd Chronicles spoiler:

Spoiler

Both Linden Avery and the Haruchai exhibit nearly zero growth in the second chronicles. However, with both Avery and Covenant their story is their slowly changing personalities, so of course there isn't going to be rapid change in their behavior.

As to Karsa: I'm sure all of Wu is much happier that a rampaging barbrian isn't going around randomly killing anyone who eyes him askance anymore. He generally requires a motive to kill individuals nowadays, so I'm quite happy with his behavior now.

[Daemon_Monkey]

HoosierDaddy;350656 said:

As to Karsa: I'm sure all of Wu is much happier that a rampaging barbrian isn't going around randomly killing anyone who eyes him askance anymore. He generally requires a motive to kill individuals nowadays, so I'm quite happy with his behavior now.

Spoiler

What about his entrance to Letheras in RG, when he throws the guards several feet in the air for basically no reason?

This post has been edited by Dancer: 13 November 2008 - 01:38 PM

[Aptorian]

Spoiler

He had a reason. He guard was standing in his way. You don't stand in Karsa's way especially not when he's irritated.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

You won't like him when he's irritated.

[Gimli's love child]

When Karsa raped that Teblor village SE was very clever with his writting and I seem to recall that some text suggesting that the village chiefs daugther was more than accomadating when it came to this so called 'rape'. Cant remember exact quotes but Karsa and Co did mention using blood oil if needed but after the scene something was said about the women being imaginitive enough to avoid this.

It is slight suggestions that the women are actually enjoying this scene and making the most of it is was leads us to take a more liberal view of Karsa. Also the fact that this is part of life for the Teblor who inhabit a very harsh enviroment almost desenstises.

Now if you compre this is Covenant. He ends up in a Land, basically a hippyfest, where everyone is nice to each other they have an oath of peace and its all more or less hunky dorey. Then he runs into a wee lassie that is kind enough to help him when in need who is sympathetic and carring. Then he turns on her and rapes her. Which your automatic reaction is.... what a complete bastard. Fair enough but the two scenarios are very differnet. Lets not forget as well that donaldson writes Covenant as coming from our world which ties into our idea of rape and the laws and feeling surrounding it. However on Wu there are no such set laws and pre-conceptions which makes this mre tolerable, a way of life.

[Wordmerchant]

There really is no valid equality between the two events. The taking of the Teblor women occurs within the cultural mores of Teblor society. As such it is not considered a heinous act, but as the proper method of strengthening the tribes and culling of unacceptable genetic patterns. Within the context of this society, Karsa's actions are correct and proper. SE goes to great length in establishing this as a given set of cultural criteria.

Contrarily, Donaldson establishes in his prose the clear and unwavering violation of Covenant's rape, providing the context in which the reader must, of necessity, view it.

In both cases, the authors have done a masterful job of creating the proper context and environment to achieve the desired reader reactions.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Rereading Bonehunters.

Spoiler

Karsa says he no longer rapes, as he doesn't have any bloodoil. He states that it is solely the blood oil that drives the Teblor to rape.

I understand the points about Karsa's society not having the same judgements about rape. True enough. But our society does, and it should influence how we feel about it.

This post has been edited by Dancer: 13 November 2008 - 01:38 PM

[Cougar]

Well in the TtH Prolugue:

Spoiler

It says that at least one of the women is a bit turned on by the memory of Karsa, so clearly it was an expected part of Teblor society

and also the mother doesn't seem overly bothered about it, she barely exceeds grumpy.

Covenant I didn't worry about too much because I always thought when he did it he thought the world wasn't real, which I think makes a difference. You might say that it is morally reprehensible but I'd say that if you didn't believe the world was real then there is no victim.

To take the thought process to an extreme it would be like condemning someone who enjoys the killing in a computre game. We all supress animalistic, violent and morally reprehensible urges (how many times have you just wanted to beat the shit out of someone) but it is how we control ourselves that makes us civilised. You may find it unpleasant that Covenant has the capacity to find pleasure in a fantasy rape but would he have done it if he realised the world was real??

Mind you it's a long time since I read it!

This post has been edited by Dancer: 13 November 2008 - 01:38 PM

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Good points, but I wouldn't say Covenant actually took pleasure in the rape, beyond physical gratification. He felt disgusted with himself immediately after.

I am a little disturbed by SE's insinuation that Karsa's victims secretly enjoyed and wanted it. I don't think he's saying that ALL rape victims enjoy it, but it is more than a little creepy that in his books some of them do.