[amphibian]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;353876 said:

Good points, but I wouldn't say Covenant actually took pleasure in the rape, beyond physical gratification. He felt disgusted with himself immediately after.

I am a little disturbed by SE's insinuation that Karsa's victims secretly enjoyed and wanted it. I don't think he's saying that ALL rape victims enjoy it, but it is more than a little creepy that in his books some of them do.

I don't think they wanted the rape, but they did want Karsa. Teblor culture is built around strength and the women seem culturally and perhaps genetically programmed to go after the alphas - which Karsa is - to get stronger kids.

There's also the potential of Stockholm syndrome rearing its ugly head here.

[Cougar]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;353876 said:

Good points, but I wouldn't say Covenant actually took pleasure in the rape, beyond physical gratification. He felt disgusted with himself immediately after.

I suppose what I'm really getting at is the capacity to behave in a 'barbaric' way exists in most if not all of us to a certain degree, what stops us doing it is 2 things:

1. The defined morals of the society in which we live.

2. Our empathy and respect for the feelings of others.

When covenant comitts the rape, he doesn't believe he is bound by either of these factors, since nothing is real. Some radical feminists have argued that at the core all men are capable of rape when released from these factors, just as all people are capable of killing in an articifical consequence free world). But I think there is a third factor which is pertinent from a 'logistics' point of view if nothing else:

to committ rape you'd have to be aroused by the thought of it, you have to attain wood, Covenant has to be aroused at the time. That to me is the only truly reprehensible part of it because I don't know how you could be turned on by what is essentially assault.

Quote

I am a little disturbed by SE's insinuation that Karsa's victims secretly enjoyed and wanted it. I don't think he's saying that ALL rape victims enjoy it, but it is more than a little creepy that in his books some of them do.

Well of course if you actually want something then it's empowering, if the women accept the rape culturally not just as gratification for Karsa but as a way of furthering the race by taking his seed then they are owning it and it is a transaction rather than a one sided assault. They gain the benefit of the genetic material of the strongest male whilst he revels in the illusion of domination and power. There is no question that Karsa is aroused by the domination of the rapes and neither of the women seems too bothered. The mother barely gets past 'a bit miffed' if I remember the passage correctly.

I have to say though I'm only making a guess here, we don't have any real psycological information except the TtH Prologue.

I don't find this creepy, since in this case it could be argued that the women may not be (or see themselves as) victims at all.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Cougar;354193 said:

to committ rape you'd have to be aroused by the thought of it, you have to attain wood, Covenant has to be aroused at the time. That to me is the only truly reprehensible part of it because I don't know how you could be turned on by what is essentially assault.

Good post, but I'm heading to bed so will only comment on this part for now. iirc, I don't think he was turned on by the assault, he got turned on because he was attracted to her, at first with no thought of any inappropriate actions. Because of his illness, he had been numb and physically unable to become physically aroused until this point. This combined with his unbelief on the Land sort of made him snap and he lost it.

Not justifying it, just saying that he didn't become aroused as a result of the attack, the attack was a result of him becoming aroused.

[Cougar]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;354202 said:

Good post, but I'm heading to bed so will only comment on this part for now. iirc, I don't think he was turned on by the assault, he got turned on because he was attracted to her, at first with no thought of any inappropriate actions. Because of his illness, he had been numb and physically unable to become physically aroused until this point. This combined with his unbelief on the Land sort of made him snap and he lost it.

Not justifying it, just saying that he didn't become aroused as a result of the attack, the attack was a result of him becoming aroused.

I think you are getting to the rub here. The fact that he was able to maintain a level of arousal whilst committing the rape means there was something that Covenant found at least acceptable, I'm not arguing he was aroused by the thought of rape per se, he was obviously attracted to the girl, most peoples thought process would go like this.

I fancy that girl - I'm in an unreal world -my actions have no consequences-I can do what I like - I'd like to shag her but she won't consent to it -well I could rape her - it's not real -but I'm not aroused by sex with someone who has to be assaulted and forced even if it isn't real.

Covenant, whether he has snapped or not rejects this last step and that's what's bad.

To put some context to what I'm saying, watch the film irreversible there is a 9 minute anal rape scene in it with the mega hot Monica Bellucci. If you are turned on by this (they are actors, there are no consequences, it isn't real) then chances are put in the same postion as Covenant you could do the same thing.

A few people have said he regrets doing it which is a fair point , but any fool can regret mistakes. At the heart of it Covenant had the capacity to commit rape and find pleasure in it (albeit briefly) he has the power to surrender to base desires and drop any pretence of humanity when he believes his actions are consequence free and don't hurt anyone.

The scene didn't bother me at the time because I'd never thought it through I was willing to let him off because he didn't realise what he was doing and I don't think I'd thought about it again till yesterday. Good thread.

[Gimli's love child]

Just to add to the mix. Covenants nerves had just regenerated after the application on hurtloam and the sudden return of long forgotten desires would have impacted his character. I dont know or rather suppose that this was not an act of passion but more like a submission to animal urges that he was not expecting.

Peersonally I think Ercikson and Donaldson should both be praised for the inclusion of this topic in their writting. No artist/author/musician should be afraid of breaching any taboos as by doing so allow people to maybe open their minds a little and study from all angles... like this thread

[Varunwe]

After Karsa raped and murdered the Teblor village, and did the same to the Nathii, I hated him. I've mellowed on him though, as he is improving (damn that mercy stuf at the end of HoC). I didn't stop reading HoC, as I already loved MBotF, and my almost-stopped-reading-moment was in DG. Had HoC been the first book of MBoF I had read, I wouldn't have made it past that Teblor village.

I once started Covenant, but didn't even make it to the rape ...

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

You started a fantasy series and didn't get to the part where he actually goes to the fantasy world? You're doing yourself a disservice. It's a good series.

[Illuyankas]

I did the same, I just got bored of the CONSTANT WHINING and having to face an entire book/series of it put me off.

[HoosierDaddy]

Well, he is a leper. I think that is pretty whine worthy.

[Illuyankas]

Yeah, but an entire book from the POV of say, the Mhybe would be torture.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I understand the comparison, but for me Covenant is waaay less annoying than the Mhybe.

[Illuyankas]

Is it because he can move around and whine to a different audience?

[HoosierDaddy]

Illuyankas;361003 said:

Is it because he can move around and whine to a different audience?

To me he is less annoying than the Whineby because Covenant actually does things other than either bitch, moan, or flee the things that are attempting to help him in his dreams. Plus, Covenant has an entire series of books while the Whineby gets some love in GotM & MoI, thus his character is built on way more than Whineby's.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

And he grows more as a character. But this isn't the thread for defending the Covenant books to unbelievers. (See what I did there?)

[Cougar]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;361068 said:

And he grows more as a character. But this isn't the thread for defending the Covenant books to unbelievers. (See what I did there?)

Get out!

[Salt-Man Z]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;361068 said:

But this isn't the thread for defending the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant to unbelievers.

Fixed to maximize teh funny.

[Varunwe]

Quote

You started a fantasy series and didn't get to the part where he actually goes to the fantasy world? You're doing yourself a disservice. It's a good series.

Yes, it was too difficult a read for me at the time (this was years ago). On the other hand, I'm glad I never got to the rape. I would have stopped in disgust then.

[Cerberus Maw]

I can't remember the quote off the top of my head (my beloved MbotF series is on the other side of the world to me) but remember when

Spoiler

Delum and Bairoth find the writing on the cave wall, if gives brief synopsis of the Treblor history, including that the bloodlines had become cloudy. Along the lines of "The tribes must be divided and rape must be introduced to lessen those born with imperfections."

This was given by none other than Icarium. So it looks as if rape was adopted as a way of survival for the Teblor, so maybe in their culture, rape is less morally reprehensible than it would normally be viewed in by others.

[HoosierDaddy]

Cerberus Maw;363910 said:

I can't remember the quote off the top of my head (my beloved MbotF series is on the other side of the world to me) but remember when

Spoiler

Delum and Bairoth find the writing on the cave wall, if gives brief synopsis of the Treblor history, including that the bloodlines had become cloudy. Along the lines of "The tribes must be divided and rape must be introduced to lessen those born with imperfections."

This was given by none other than Icarium. So it looks as if rape was adopted as a way of survival for the Teblor, so maybe in their culture, rape is less morally reprehensible than it would normally be viewed in by others.

You can unspoiler that if you want to. 1. House of Chains spoilers are acceptable in the House of Chains thread. 2. You basically said it right afterwards anyways.

It was someone who remembered Icarium's rules who wrote that, one of those rules being that to retain their former glory births cannot be common, thus only women raped give birth, ensuring that the Teblor bloodlines start to get stronger and less diluted than if lots of births are taking place. Whether this is because only a few of the Teblor at that point had a strong bloodline, or to keep them from having sex with mules to make babies I am unsure of and can't exactly remember.

[amphibian]

HoosierDaddy;364938 said:

It was someone who remembered Icarium's rules who wrote that, one of those rules being that to retain their former glory births cannot be common, thus only women raped give birth, ensuring that the Teblor bloodlines start to get stronger and less diluted than if lots of births are taking place. Whether this is because only a few of the Teblor at that point had a strong bloodline, or to keep them from having sex with mules to make babies I am unsure of and can't exactly remember.

The unknown cave scribe (I'm having flashbacks to the Castle of Aaaaaaaaa) spoke of a big-time defeat that the Thelomen Toblakai had just suffered. It wasn't so much the preservation, but improvement of the genetic stock that was desired.