[blackzoid]

And another quick question on the sequence of events.

Was Rhulad already King of Chains when Kallor joined up with the CG?

I know its MT->MoI->HoC, but according to A'Karonys quote the House of Chains wasn't sanctioned yet at the time Kallor accepted Gethol's offer from the CG.
I certainly hope we got some pov from Kallor on why he wasn't the King in Toll the Hounds

[D'rek]

It is generally believed that Kallor could not be the King because of K'rul, Draconus and Nightchill's curse on him that he would never ascend, that he would have needed to be capable of ascension in order to be King. As you say, we'll hopefully find out the truth of the matter soon enough.

[Skywalker]

blackzoid;332425 said:

I have spotted a contradiction with regards to the sword.
At the end of Reaper's Gale:
Rhulad was King of Chains
Karsa was the Knight of the House of Chains (rejected)
He kills Rhulad and the CG wanted Karsa to pick up the sword.
Did the CG want Karsa to be the new King of Chains or just the Knight?
Does having the sword signify being the King or the Knight?

I read that as the CG thinking... well, Rhulad is gone... so might as well try and save what's left of my relationship with Karsa

[Silencer]

A said:

Foolish mortals. The "dread power" card is the Knight card -> Karsa. Notice Hood hadn't mentioned him yet in that paragraph. He is the dread power, the Fool is probably not someone of super-significance.

As for the Mortal Sword business, Rhulad was made the Mortal Sword in MT, and remained so until the HoC was fully created in HoC, upon which he became the King in Chains.

Good catch there, I was going to post it, but only just read the thread.
It depends on what you mean by the Fool - technically Mowri holds that position. As for the mortal which has it......

[Lisheo]

Dont forget, the CG can have a Destraint and Shield Anvil too.

[Sotgnomen]

Hi there, new here I am.

Im thinking Rhulad became King in Chains when the HoC was recognised by the Master of the Deck, as stated above. Allthough one would think becoming emperor helped as well.
Personally I always found it odd that this posistion doesnt belong to the CG himself. Far as I can see Chains and Death are the only houses with a god above them instead of in them(exept the elder Kurald-warrens with their "parents"). This is assuming Hood is not King of Death(as of right now i cant remember). Shadow and Life for instance have rulers within their Hierarchy. I dont think anyone believes the King in Chains would actually rule anything with the CG around.

As for Mortal Sword, this seems to me to be an entirely different hierarchy. Houses are all warren-aspected, yes?(with the new exeption of House War I guess), while the mortal hierarchy is Ascendant-aspected in that a Mortal Sword derives its power from the ascendant it belongs to.
Thus I dont see a structural problem of say Gruntle becoming Fool in Chains. Of course the conflict in interests would make it really interesting(come to think of it, this would not be such a surprising move from CG, and it would certainly be amusing)

This is of course newbie speculation, feel free to scorn and throw a thread at me where this has been clarified already.

[blackzoid]

I think it is in the glossaries that Hood is the King of High House Death.

[Carnifex]

Sotgnomen-
The CG deliberately set himself apart from the HoC once Paran recognized it. The HoC can cause trouble and chaos, but it's bound by the rules of the Deck. By keeping himself apart from it, the CG can cheat a bit and beat the system.

[Sotgnomen]

This is stated in the books, or speculation?

[Osseric's mortal sword]

Stated in the books. Gruntle and Paran have a big conversation about it after the fall of Capustan

[Lisheo]

He's not really cheating, mind you. He's the patron of the broken, bear in mind, and like Cotillion can help and guide assassins, eg Cutter who is not in House Shadow, the CG can help all the broken in High House Chains.

[Sotgnomen]

And of course he can break them first, so have an endless supply;)
But I agree, it's not cheating, and quite a clever ruse, so long as he knows he has control over the house.

This could actually be an interesting development... if someone, say Karsa, wrested control of the house away from him. It must be a risk, insisting on putting him in the house against his will.

[Lisheo]

Or perhaps he wants someone to wrest all those broken worshippers away from him... After all, Silchas Ruin suggests its their fault he hasn't healed yet. Maybe thats his big plan.

[Urko Schmurko]

It may result that the CG moves into the Warren of Death as a replacement to Hood. This may put a lot of constraints on the CG, as he'd be limited by the House's Death aspect, whatever that is....then problem solved...or not!

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Someone thought Clip could be the Fool...I doubt it, in the epilogue Skintick said he was "furious", not bitter. Can't imagine him bowing to Nimander, though.

This post has been edited by Ain't_It_Just_: 17 January 2009 - 06:57 AM

[Urizen]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 17 2009, 07:56 AM, said:

Someone thought Clip could be the Fool...I doubt it, in the epilogue Skintick said he was "furious", not bitter. Can't imagine him bowing to Nimander, though.

I suggested that, mostly beacuse Clip has all the personality traits that the CG seems to value and fury might very well turn to bitterness and hate when (as I expect to happen) the Tiste Andii don't kiss his ass and worship Clip the Magnificent. Given the Andii personality and Clips the most likely scenario(to me at least) is Clip strutting around Black Coral telling anyone he can corner how he is the MAN and the Andiii ignoring him.

This post has been edited by Urizen: 17 January 2009 - 10:54 AM

[Coldsnap]

This is a great issue, both on the Clip side of things and the HOC and its ties to the CGs intentions. On the Clip side of things, though he was described as the Mortal Sword of Anomander Rake, or the cult of Andii descendants that worshipped him as the Black Winged Lord, he was also the first in millenia to supposedly have been borne of darkness. I dont remember exactly where this is stated, but definetly in Reapers Gale somewhere, he talks about how he is quite unique and gifted and it seems implied that he is perhaps the Mortal Sword of Mother Dark herself in that he was borne of her. Hopefully someone else can refresh my memory on the Clip subject, but it is always hard to gauge when hes lying or telling the truth also. He does, however, have the ability to avoid the swinging blades of even Ruin in that particular book. So, amidst the lies and confusion, though his people do worship Rake as god, Clip himself seems apart from all of them in his prowess, his nature, and the fact that he seems to be borne of MD herself. That he knew darkness more intimately than any other.

In terms of the HOC hierarchy, I always assumed that unlike any of the other houses, the CG delighted in having uber-powerful or ruthless characters constantly vying for position within the house. That this was the overarching chain within this particular house. Ambition, greed, vengeance and loss. In this respect, it really wouldnt matter to someone like the CG who is in fact this or that in terms of titles, but rather who, by nature, intent and action, is currently occupying a particular seat of power within it. There are no grand titles in the HOC, only action and intent. The CG would revel in this, and for him, he truly wanted Karsa to submit to this game, to enter the fray within the HOC, to ultimately become yet another seemingly unwitting player in the CGs game. The HOC is, for me, one of the most complex and brilliant power-system in these books and so unconventional that it remains a tantilizing mystery. What is not a mystery, however, is that it merely serves as means to the ends of CG, and all the posturing and fighting for power within it are the pathetic machinations of unknowing slaves. Another reason to applaud Karsa for recognizing this and denying it. A confusing part for me on the part of Kallor, now that we know so much more of him, but Kallors plans for CG promise to be anything but simple.

I believe Kallor also has a high place, as did Feather witch and Baralta, Gethol and the Jhistal priest, the Pannion Domin and such... but it is more than enough for the CG to simply have these powerful and well placed pawns vying for power and priviliedge within his House while they serve his brilliant plans.

I dont know, just thought Id add my two cents.

Cheers

[Sinisdar Toste]

he just wanted karsa to have the sword. king, knight? whats the difference when your immortal.
i think tene baralta could have been the fool like AIJ says. lostara yil really had him fooled

[muco]

I think CG 'needs' Karsa for some reason...more than he needs the other guys around him.

I don't think he has pushed or manipulated or tried to coerce anyone the way he tries to do with Karsa.

Karsa was watched from childhood, groomed and manipulated by his gods so that he can serve the CG a specific purpose. The gods wanted their freedom which I guess they would have gotten if they had delivered Karsa to CG.

Of all the people in HOC, Karsa is an exception. He is not there by choice and he is perhaps the only 'choice' of CG. Rhulad, Skinner and Kallor are powerful but there is no desperation in CG's actions to gain them.

I can't imagine the reasons why CG is driven to have Karsa on his side when he has equally powerful people at his disposal. That is why on a re-read I though Karsa is the dreaded card in the conversation.