Malazan Empire: Racism - Malazan Empire

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Racism

#161 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:35 AM

Slumgullion Spitteler;319988 said:

What is so hard to understand? It's a way of restoring balance. WHITE MEN have had an historical advantage in matters of employment/acceptance/advancement in such areas...and -big secret- it's not because they're better than everyone else.


But what in the world is balance??? Should white people be taxed to provide monetary reparations for slavery? Should the government mandate that any given street in a town be populated by a certain percent of each race? Should I (and everyone else) issue an official written apology on behalf of my race? If you answer yes to any of these, then you need to take a moment of serious reflection on the ideas of personal liberty and personal responsibility.

Are the problems and the roadblocks and the setbacks that happen in my life any less significant because I'm white? Am I indeed responsible for southern slave owners because of the color of my skin? If I work hard and make some money, do I have to worry about people thinking I made that money because I'm white? If I am qualified for a job and am hired, do I have to stop and ponder if my success is due to the boss liking my white skin?

Slavery was awful and should never have been. The Jim Crow laws and other official discrimination against blacks through the 20th century in the US is unforgivable (in its own time and place).

History has happened. Lots of bad things happened in it. But for future generations, we have our own issues and problems and progress to achieve. We can't make everything right, but we have to do our best to make the future better. We, as a human race, can strive for perfection but due what I see as the beauty of the world, perfection is not a specific, unmoving and unchanging thing. "Progress" is not some sort of natural law that we can define easily and succinctly.

We have to remember the world is not an easy place. The terms of this world are not found in black and white (not a pun, I'm being very serious here). There are hard corners, and pitfalls, and setbacks. We can't sugarcoat everything and make it all better by putting things in the hands of others, or government, or the UN, or religious institutions.

All people living out their lives have to mover forward as best they can and strive for a better and brighter future. The founding fathers of the US wrote of "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."

Life is a right and should be cherished. Liberty should be cherished every bit as much as Life. (which is why I cannot stomach Thelemen Toblerones communist "utopia").

And happiness is not guaranteed. Happiness is not something we can create, mandate or even protect. We can only pursue it. Which is why we strive to guarantee that pursuit of happiness, not happiness itself. Its hard, and we mess it up a lot. We tried to make reparations to Jewish people by forming Israel, and we all see how well that worked out.....
In general, large government bodies are ill-equipped at deciding what's "fair" and what is "balanced". As I said before, affirmative action is a poor bandaid on what is really a larger social ill. Opportunity is not given, opportunity is created by ones own hardwork, sacrifice and desire coupled with an open minded and educated public.

I believe I am one of many (most) in my generation, that if faced with a hiring decision between a black, hispanic, indian, chinese, white, so on and so forth, person, we'll make the right choice based on the facts before us and not on their ethnic origin. My bristling at affirmative action is certainly not from personal racist thoughts but from a perceived attack on my own sense of responsibility and ethics. The underlying implication is that I am not to be trusted to be fair and non-racist.

I'm not so naive as to believe that affirmative action is anything more than a government ploy for more control over the lives of the people it allegedly serves. It gets votes and it eases the consciences of those who feel they need to take guilt on their shoulders and feel better about themselves. It is just one more example of "people are not intelligent or principled enough to do the right thing, and therefore the government must step in and hamfistedly dictate who can hire whom, based on parameters they set regardless, irregardless of any particular situation."
You’ve never heard of the Silanda? … It’s the ship that made the Warren of Telas run in less than 12 parsecs.
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#162 User is offline   Adjutant Stormy~ 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 07:22 AM

Short story: Don't blame me for anything that I didn't expressly do. I am not a racist; I do not deserve the punishment.
<!--quoteo(post=462161:date=Nov 1 2008, 06:13 PM:name=Aptorian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Aptorian @ Nov 1 2008, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=462161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->God damn. Mighty drunk. Must ... what is the english movement movement movement for drunk... with out you seemimg drunk?

bla bla bla

Peopleare harrasing me... grrrrrh.

Also people with big noses aren't jews, they're just french

EDIT: We has editted so mucj that5 we're not quite sure... also, leave britney alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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#163 User is offline   Thelomen Toblerone 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 09:14 AM

Amusing, someone's petty enough to neg rep me with the line "suck it" for having socialist leanings. And they're so brave they havent signed it. Apologies for having a desire to help my fellow man :o
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#164 User is offline   Cougar 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 09:47 AM

Thelomen Toblerone;320124 said:

Amusing, someone's petty enough to neg rep me with the line "suck it" for having socialist leanings. And they're so brave they havent signed it. Apologies for having a desire to help my fellow man :o


God damn commies. I didn't fight in Vietnam so you red bastards could spout off on the interweb...hang on, I didn't fight in Vietnam, I did once have a fist fight in a Vietnamese takeaway though...:p
I AM A TWAT
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#165 User is offline   Raymond Luxury Yacht 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 09:49 AM

Adjutant Stormy;320108 said:

Short story: Don't blame me for anything that I didn't expressly do. I am not a racist; I do not deserve the punishment.


You're not necessarily being blamed for what you didn't do, but you are benefiting from centuries of the deck being stacked in your favor.
Error: Signature not valid
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#166 User is offline   The Tyrant Lizard 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 10:18 AM

Raymond Luxury Yacht;320134 said:

You're not necessarily being blamed for what you didn't do, but you are benefiting from centuries of the deck being stacked in your favor.


how?
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#167 User is offline   Urb 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 10:51 AM

@Shin

It is the chief responsibility of any government to strive for safety and prosperity for all its citizens. One of the largest factors that lead to poverty (which again leads to crime) is unemployment. Now, when you look at the big picture, you usually have several (ethnic) groups within any society. If the gap between these groups grows too big, it will ultimately compromise the safety because of culture clash, resentment, etc. (not long ago the streets of Paris were a warzone with burning cars, teargas and bricks flying throught the air).

Most people will by nature stick to their own kind, and therefore (as I see it anyway), it is in the best interest of any government to "manipulate" (or force) the groups to assimilate. Personally I also have very little faith in communism, because it stifles economic and technological growth in the long run. But on the other side capitalism makes the government too weak (lobbyism and all that crap), and therefore unable to regulate where regulation is needed.

When you ask if the government should mandate that any given street in a town be populated by a certain percent of each race, that's actually a very interresting question. Here in Norway, there are politicians who really regret not doing so from the start, because they feel like it would be impossible to implement such measures now. And we're starting to see "ghettoes" in certain parts of the bigger cities.
The leader, his audience still,
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and with anguish he said,
"But how will we teach them to kill?"


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#168 User is offline   Slum 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 11:45 AM

Shinrei no Shintai;320090 said:

But what in the world is balance??? Sh



Good question...

It's certainly not letting things stand as they are...and hoping that humanity, by some wishful thinking, will correct itself.
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#169 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 01:15 PM

@ TT, soliciaism in the form of communism simply doesnt work, mans inherent nature of greed and a desire to dominate leads to a group of power hungry madmen manipulating their way into power then royally screwing over the rest :o (wasn't me neg repped you, but I can't abide idealists who try and argue communism could work, it wont)

I think my concluding thought on this subject will come in the following form:
Natures a bitch, survival of the fittest and all that, life ain't fair and leaning on the past isn't going to make it that way.
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#170 User is offline   Thelomen Toblerone 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 02:39 PM

Just because it hasnt worked, doesnt mean it cant. I know plenty of people who arent inherently greedy or selfish, and spend their free time volunteering and doing things to help their communities, charities, etc. I personally feel that most people act the way they do (ie like bastards :o) because this is how society expects you to be alot of the time. You dont work your arse off to be better than the next guy, you can be sure he'll get a job ahead of you. Money happens to be the standard by which we set our lives, I myself think that's not a good thing. As such, I hold on to some hope that through education and social schemes, some sort of socialism is ultimately attainable. Look at the Scandinavian countries, they seem to have managed a system halfway there, and they're doing pretty damn well. Im a politics student and still young, so I think I'm entitled to still believe that here is some inherent good in humanity before going all cynical with old age.:p
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#171 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 03:03 PM

theres plenty of people who are genuinely nice people, i'll admit, but they arent going to run the country, its the powerhungry that float to the top. Nice people don't twist, lie and manipulate, and are shocked when people do, hence the ability of dictators to obtain and maintain power. I'm young but I have no misapprehensions that there is inherent good in humanity, :o
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#172 User is offline   Nequam 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 03:42 PM

Slumgullion Spitteler;319988 said:

What is so hard to understand? It's a way of restoring balance. WHITE MEN have had an historical advantage in matters of employment/acceptance/advancement in such areas...and -big secret- it's not because they're better than everyone else.


That's not restoring the balance, it's unbalancing it the other way. I understand that white men have had the advantage, but if EVERYBODY is allowed the equal amount of chance for a good education that advantage should go away. The problem is inour school systems I think. (not that each one is doing a bad job, but that some are not capable of doing as good; because of budgets and what not) However, what about college? How can minorities send their children to school if they are unable to get good jobs? I completely understand why they are doing this, it's not hard to get. I just don't think they are doing it the best way. It's just not fair at all. You can't disadvantage a whole group thinking it will balance things out because a different group was disadvantaged. Make things equal. How to do that I'm not so sure really, but I don't think this is the right way. Someone is going to get screwed for something they have no control over.

...and maybe do all the interviews blindfolded.

EDIT: Oh yeah and Shin, that was one of the best posts I've read yet. Very good points, ones I tried to make but just couldn't, and well organized. I would rep you but it won't let me. :o
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#173 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 04:07 PM

For the record, it wasn't me who neg repped you Thelomen, even though I totally disagree with you. :o

And Urb, government already over-regulates how people live. And zoning restrictions aside, the moment the government starts TELLING me where I have to live, is the moment I move to another country.

And by the way, there is far more wrong with the idea of communism than just "people are too selfish for it to work".
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#174 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 04:27 PM

damned straight theres more wrong with communism than laziness, My family hasnt busted its back for years to turn round and hand our farm over to the government. When they tried collectivation in soviet russia the herds were devestated and took nearly 40 years to recover to pre collectiviation numbers
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#175 User is offline   Thelomen Toblerone 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:14 PM

Using Soviet Russia as a case study for socialism isnt really fair- the country was desperately underdeveloped and in no position to undertake such a thing. On top of that, they'd just suffered from WW1, a civil war, and then had to rapidly deal with the threat of Germany and WW2. On top of that they had insane leaders.

Look at Kruschev for example - he started the Virgin Land scheme, but didnt listen to expert advice as he was the son of a farmer and thought he knew it all himself. Turned out he really, really didnt, and committed basic errors like not providing transport for the crops to the cities, and not using fertiliser, overproducing, and thereby stripping the topsoil, making it useless. And lets not even mention Stalin.

Plus that's outright communism with immediate action, as opposed to gradual change. Everyone will be pissed off having to give up all their stuff, but having welath reditributed via taxation or whatever gradually over years and years isnt going to be so drastically painful.
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#176 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:17 PM

you're rigt, communism can't be pigeon holed because of stalin, lets admire mao... no wait, er, fidel castr.....wait, no.
i'll get back to you :o
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#177 User is offline   Slum 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:51 PM

Nequam;320238 said:

That's not restoring the balance, it's unbalancing it the other way. I understand that white men have had the advantage, but if EVERYBODY is allowed the equal amount of chance for a good education that advantage should go away. The problem is inour school systems I think. (not that each one is doing a bad job, but that some are not capable of doing as good; because of budgets and what not) However, what about college? How can minorities send their children to school if they are unable to get good jobs? I completely understand why they are doing this, it's not hard to get. I just don't think they are doing it the best way. It's just not fair at all. You can't disadvantage a whole group thinking it will balance things out because a different group was disadvantaged. Make things equal. How to do that I'm not so sure really, but I don't think this is the right way. Someone is going to get screwed for something they have no control over.

...and maybe do all the interviews blindfolded.

EDIT: Oh yeah and Shin, that was one of the best posts I've read yet. Very good points, ones I tried to make but just couldn't, and well organized. I would rep you but it won't let me. :o




Ummm, OK. Let me post this.

Quote

Myth #1: The only way to create a color-blind society is to adopt color-blind policies.

Although this assertion sounds intuitively plausible, the reality is that color-blind policies often put racial minorities at a disadvantage. For instance, all else being equal, color-blind seniority systems tend to protect White workers against job layoffs, because senior employees are usually White (Ezorsky, 1991). Likewise, color-blind college admissions favor White students because of their earlier educational advantages. Unless pre-existing inequities are corrected or otherwise taken into account, color-blind policies do not correct racial injustice—they reinforce it.

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#178 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 06:15 PM

Ummm, OK. Let me post this.

EDUCATION. EDUCATION. EDUCATION.

Break the cycle from below. Flipping racial injustice does not solve racial injustice.

The real question is, why do politicians (at least in the US) hate education so much, forcing biased standardized tests and failing to change an education system that is based originally on an agrarian society.
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#179 User is offline   Slum 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 06:45 PM

Shinrei no Shintai;320349 said:

Ummm, OK. Let me post this.

EDUCATION. EDUCATION. EDUCATION.

Break the cycle from below. Flipping racial injustice does not solve racial injustice.

The real question is, why do politicians (at least in the US) hate education so much, forcing biased standardized tests and failing to change an education system that is based originally on an agrarian society.



Gah! This is maddening! This thread has turned into one BIG circular argument. Honestly, I have NO problem with affirmative action and EOEs...and I'm a college-educated white man.

In 2020 (or whenever), when your boss is a black dude who keeps promoting black employees while looking down his nose at you, because you went to a state school, then come cry about racial injustice adversely affecting the white man....
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#180 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 07:32 PM

In my country white people are the minority. Being passed over for black people is not a rare occurance. Goverment ear marks 80% of all goverment jobs for black people and has a policy of promoting black people over white people. So yes my boss will be a black person promoting black employees over me looking down at me with the backing of the law because Im white. Wheres the confusion as to why this is discrimination?
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