[Mentalist]

THe Nascent is kinda out there..
it may have been a chunk of KE.
it's also possible that CG tried to claim it as his own, but got owned by the Andii (my pet theory )
and its supposedly close to Jaghut-death-bridge, where all kinds of old things lie dead..

[Aptorian]

kud13;303411 said:

it's also possible that CG tried to claim it as his own, but got owned by the Andii (my pet theory )

The Nascent realm that the CG was using was obliterated by the Andii at the last chaining.

The nascent realm on the border of the Elder Death warren shoved no sign of such destruction. Rather it had been a thriving world in upon itself before Rhulad flooded it.

[D'rek]

and besides, the Deragoth aren't aspected to Darkness. They're about as aspected as... Toblakai are.

[Blub]

The Jaghut bridge being connected to the Nascent keeps popping up. I always thought it's some kind of spiritual bridge you can use to get from one realm to another and the only reason the Jaghut went there when they died is because they had nowhere else to go (they're not big on the afterlife thing). For the Jaghut it's the bridge from life to death; for Paran it's a bridge from Malaziworld to the Nascent.

[Tiger_sword]

Perhaps a group stumbled across the Nascent not realising what is actually used to be. If they were an early group being protected by the Deragoth then its natural that they would end up worshiping them, cut off from the rest of the world.

[Aptorian]

Warrens drift, they wander and they brush up against each other. It just so happens that the Nascent and the Elder Warren of death overlap.

The place that Ganath calls the Jaghut bridge of death is, as Ganath herself explains, ancient, older than the Jaghut themselves. We learn in RG that it's always been the final resting place of the dead on Wu. The souls of dragons, Imass, Jaghut, etc are found in layers in the realm.

The bridge of death lays beneath Hoods realm but Hood doesn't pretend to control that warren.

[Vengeance]

Here is a thought a little off topic but none the less. In one of the books I remember a story that talked about how the Deragoth belonged to a strong master...Could it end up that Karsa might be come the Master of the remaining Deragoth....

[Aptorian]

If two wont bow down to him, I don't think five will. Unless of course they through some telepathic link instinctively know what he did to the first two...

I really hope Erikson doesn't screw us and has a sapper blow them up, they're the god damn deragoth. I need to see them annihalate an army or destroy a city or something!

[Mentalist]

*faceoff
QoD vs the Degaroth

QoD unveils her warren, channels its power... and nothing happens
osserc sembles on a cliff in safety.
QoD: "Help me, you bastard!"
Osserc: "Are you mad, woman?"
QoD "my warren can't hold them any longer!"
Osserc: "Of course not: THEY"RE THE DEGAROTH, BITCH!" *

[Abyss]

Interesting point sideays raised above:

We saw the hounds use 'warrens' in DG - see where a Hound jumps into the dhenrabi mouth and the sea monster breaks its teeth on the pooch's warren. We also saw Blind respond to Cutter's summons in HoC. And we also know the Hounds are linked to Shadow in the sense that they see elements of it that Cotillion doesn't (DG again).

On the other hand, while immensely powerful, we haven't seen the Dragoth do anything 'magic'. It appeared the last seven deragoth were linked to the statues in the Nascent/Jaghut Bridge warren somehow, so when the statues broke, they were 'summoned', but that aside, maybe they can't travel warrens. Yes, Shadowthrone was concerned, but he's addled at the best of times and may not actually know what the deragoth are capable of. hey may just be stuck on 7C unless they decide to swim, and 7C is fairly quiet post-Poliel.

That said, it seems clear that there is a link between the last Deragoth and the Hounds, via their souls or shadows or something. The Deragoth clearly want the Hounds enough to pursue them.


My pet theory, mentioned elsewhere, is that Dessibelackis attempted to make himself into a more powerful d'ivers by using Shadow to mimic or steal power from the deragoth he had in service. Since the seven hounds are all different, maybe he used domestic dogs as templates, who knows? The ritual went wrong and the result was seven Hounds who became independant beings linked to the Shadow warren. Maye they are all that's left of Dessimbelackis, maybe not. Seven very pissed off Deargoth were left without shadows, souls or something.

Subsequently, not learning their lesson, the Human First Empire tried to do the soletaken ritual on a grand scale and screwed it up, with resulting Imass v shapeshifter massacre. By that point, the Hounds are in Shadow and the last Deragoth have fncked off somewhere else until Onrack and then Paran summon them.

It's mad speculation made up of bits and pieces. Don't hold me to it.

- Abyss, notes the Mules of Shadow and the Donkeygoth are a whole other thing...

[D'rek]

Well my pet theory is that the Jaghut bound the Deragoth into those statues. I suppose placing them beyond their own manifestation of an underworld would be a pretty reassuring way of making sure they won't come back...

[SiriusL]

Well, we are pretty sure the Shadow Hounds predate Dessimbelackis, or at least the human FE, so again I don't think he created them.

As for the Deragoth using warrens--first, L'oric thinks they will follow him wherever he goes (that is, through warrens); he didn't want to bring them back to Raraku and was preparing to die. Second, somehow the two Deragoth that mauled Onrack somehow made it from the Nascent to Raraku. That raises the question, though--did they use warrens, or did someone open the door for them.

Oh yeah, and the remaining five Deragoth got from the Nascent to 7Cs, as well.

[Seed]

I suspect the Deragoth have access to a Toblaki-esque personal warren/powersink of sorts like Karsa has shown evidence of. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if the Deragoth as a species were more extent (and numerous) back in the days when the TTT were giants living in their ancient cities. Big Dogs, Big Giant Men...competing races on the same scale.

I'm beginning to think that they (deragoth) could sniff out weaknesses and ruptures with which to use to travel the various warrens. Imperfectly sealed rents they can brute force open for passage. There's got be hundreds or even thousands of them scattered all over the world/warrens. Not so much travelling on all their own power or abilities, but making use of already existing links to slip through.

[Silencer]

In regards to how the Deragoth may have gone from FE to trapped in stones - Mael points out in RG that a god can be dragged to an altar (that is it's point) if one is not careful - this shows that perhaps the Deragoth may have had this happen to them once they started getting worshipped.

Other than that, not much to add - good discussion though.

[Abyss]

SiriusL;303608 said:

Well, we are pretty sure the Shadow Hounds predate Dessimbelackis, or at least the human FE, so again I don't think he created them.

Are we? because aside from ST's comment that the Hounds were thousands of years old, and Onrack's one comment that the Imass had encountered them before, i can't think of any ref that puts them at an earlier point, and those two instances line up with the human First Empire.

Quote

As for the Deragoth using warrens--first, L'oric thinks they will follow him wherever he goes (that is, through warrens); he didn't want to bring them back to Raraku and was preparing to die. Second, somehow the two Deragoth that mauled Onrack somehow made it from the Nascent to Raraku. That raises the question, though--did they use warrens, or did someone open the door for them.

Oh yeah, and the remaining five Deragoth got from the Nascent to 7Cs, as well.

You raise a good point. I could explain away the Loric instance in that he didn't want them following him thru the same gate he would have opened to escape.

(As a complete aside - interesting that Loric was in what he called a 'Raraku memory', yet he was worried about the creatures there escaping into the 'real' world.

Also interesting that Loric was ready to die to prevent exactly what Paran ended up doing in TB... ).

The two from the Nascent could have used the gate Onrack and Trull later open with the Liosan, or it may have been that one of the players in the convergence at the Whirlwind camp summoned them, since it certainly seemed like they were there for a reason, to take out Karsa or otherwise.

The five from Paran's trip to the Nascent would have logically followed Paran and the TTG back to 7C and picked up the Hounds' trail there, and i agree, the only way to do that would have been to transition across warrens.

Since those seven/five from the statues were worshipped as gods by the race that built the altar Paran found, it makes sense that the Deargoth, or at least THOSE deragoth, had some warren or other sourced power.

- Abyss, notes Loric always was a bit of a putz...

[Venerus]

Abyss;304132 said:

(As a complete aside - interesting that Loric was in what he called a 'Raraku memory', yet he was worried about the creatures there escaping into the 'real' world.

Also interesting that Loric was ready to die to prevent exactly what Paran ended up doing in TB... ).

To be fair, even the CG didn't want nothin' to do with the two that came through, so L'oric's hesitation seems fair. Also, as you say, L'oric is a putz. If he'd known Karsa had special dog-busting powers, maybe he wouldn't have been so cautious. According to ST anyway, Paran isn't too worried because he knows about Karsa. Could explain it.

Or maybe statue dogs are different from memory dogs. Shrug?

[D'rek]

Abyss;304132 said:

Are we? because aside from ST's comment that the Hounds were thousands of years old, and Onrack's one comment that the Imass had encountered them before, i can't think of any ref that puts them at an earlier point, and those two instances line up with the human First Empire.

Onrack was talking about the Imass FE wasn't he?

As SiriusL posted:

Quote

Onrack: The Logros crossed paths with them [the hounds of shadow] only once, long ago, in the time of the First Empire. Seven in number. Serving an unknown master, yet bent on destruction.
Trull: The human First Empire, or yours?
Onrack: I know little of the human empire of that name. We were drawn into its heart but once, Trull Sengar, in answer to the chaos of th Soletaken and D'ivers. The Hounds made no appearance during that slaughter.

Abyss;304132 said:

(As a complete aside - interesting that Loric was in what he called a 'Raraku memory', yet he was worried about the creatures there escaping into the 'real' world.

Well, Greyfrog came through with him, didn't he?

[SiriusL]

Abyss;304132 said:

The two from the Nascent could have used the gate Onrack and Trull later open with the Liosan, or it may have been that one of the players in the convergence at the Whirlwind camp summoned them, since it certainly seemed like they were there for a reason, to take out Karsa or otherwise.

There was enough confusion at that convergence that I wouldn't be surprised of such events could draw creatures across warrens (without any specific gate-making). Uh, that was a terrible sentence. Hopefully you all got my drift. With Raraku summoning up entities from its ancient history, maybe the Deragoth were included. Where were the Eres, then?

@Venerus: Maybe Paran thought the Shadow Hounds and Dejim might give the Deragoth more trouble than they did?

[Abyss]

A said:

Onrack was talking about the Imass FE wasn't he?

Per your quote, i stand corrected. Interesting. Also, confusing. Although in theory, the Imass FE (albeit undead) and the human FE overlapped, so the eory is not ruined, tho' dented.

Quote

Well, Greyfrog came through with him, didn't he?

Greyfrog came from the borderline warren Ossi and Loric visit on the way back to the world,, not the Raraku memory.

- Abyss, "one hope too far" .... hee...

[Mentalist]

RE: L'loric
He strikes me as another of the "Ignorant divine-like" bunch of characters. He believes that things that were unstoppable millenia ago are still unmatched now--kind of like the Sisters about Ruin.
And we get the pleasure to see him being proven wrong.
Now, since Paran doesn't belong to that category, he's well aware that there are plenty of things out there that could take care of the Degaroth.

Also, I wonder if anything special wuld happen if a Hound and his Degaroth got Dragnipur'ed together....