[Thelomen Toblerone]

Apart from the Deragoth theory, of course, which seems more likely to me, as it's hinted at quite often he made a pact with them.


Incidentally, in RG there's a scene where that Gral warleader wipes out the last of a species, and a tall man with blue eyes, long dark hair and full length blue chain comes to claim the last child, surrounded by the Deragoth.

Now, my memory is utterly shite, so this may have been addressed later in the book, but who is this guy?

Im thinking either Dessimbelackis or Kallor. The Deragoth made me think Dessy, the long chain and hair Kallor.

But of course it could be neither.

[Aptorian]

I think it was Dessim aswell, I don't think the Deragoth would follow Kallor.

[Tiger_sword]

Yeah I remember that part, seamed rather odd part of the story one that could be really important in the future. Makes me wonder who/what the little girl was, she will probably return along with the blue eyed man, makes me wonder how long ago that happened though. Must have been before the Deragoth ended up in those statues for it to be a legend, doesn't seam like something Kallor would do either not to mention we know there is a large connection between Dessimbelackis and the deragoth

[Mentalist]

one of the suggestoins being made in regards to that was that the Tasse child was the future Eres....

also re: Dessi- Hounds of Shadow--
brief NoK spoiler

Spoiler

in NoK, a "spicy" smell is detected by a character when the Hounds appear to chse her

[Ahk-Thenrah]

Good point, forgot bout that part in NOK, cheers KUD.
The only problem with the hounds being Dessim, is that the edur seem to be able to control them. the problem i see with this is that its mentioned somewhere that the hounds are nowhere near as old as shadow. i think its mentioned somewhere that they are only about 1,000 years old, possibly in GotM, and unfortunately my copy is out on loan, so i can't locate the quote. then again, it may just be a GotMism. hmm, oh well, any help would be appreciated.

[Tiger_sword]

I was under the impression that they were older. The Edur have knowledge of them it seams and when they are running in shadow realm they run around invisible trees from before shadow (or something like that I don't remember exactly but they were avoiding things that the others could not see)

Question is were they the hounds of shadow before or where they known as something else?

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Aptorian;299377 said:

Dessim perhaps being the Hounds of Shadow isn't such a crazy theory, it's the most likely fate of the old emperor. We haven't heard of any other soletaken or d'ivers that could have been him...

Could be. Wasn't Shadow one of 7C's original cults? Or is that post-Dessi?

I bet the Hounds were always Hounds. In MT, Trull refers to them and it sounds like he was talking back in the time of Scabby.

[Seed]

Hmmm crazy theory time...it's implied somewhere that the seven deragoth were the remaining survivors of an entire species. It's quite possible that some of the other members way back in the day were subdued and chained down under a rock by the Imass, or Jaghut or Forkrul depending on how long ago you think it was, being pinned in place for centuries they would have eventually cast a shadow into Shadow as it were. Perhaps their shadow selves were then released by edgewalker or someone in return for becoming a protector of the warren of Shadow forevermore?

It could have even been the actual Deragoth that was subdued and pinned. Similar situation to above except this time the deragoth's physical bodies are released after a millenia or so by some unfortunate soul, but because their shadows have been romping around so long on their own they've become their own beasts with a will and mind of their own and don't join back up or somesuch. Hmmm

-Seed ...calls his shadow to heel.

[Aptorian]

Interesting idea. It's just as plausible as the hounds being created by Dessimbelakis.

Have rep.

[Warqueen]

it talks about the Deragoth "taming" the Eres...who were around before the other races...so the pups are old..so far we don't know how they got turned to stone....and the Edur can control the hounds of shadow....but what about the hounds of dark...Andii maybe....warhounds each side used?

[Seed]

Well we know that there is no hounds of light, so it's not a true trinary balance like one would expect to be the case given the whole dark/shadow/light thing. We know the Edur have some sort of influence over the hounds of shadow. There's been no evidence of any andii/hounds of darkness link, apart from the whole darkness aspect itself.

Hmm I just had a thought...it's certainly crazy theory night tonight. What if the Deragoth as a race pre-dated the andii's creation? That would certainly be a kick in their teeth. We know from Mael that species rise and fall over time and the gods keep trying out new ones. Who's to say the dogs of Darkness as a species weren't popped out by Mother Dark in the dim old days way back when, perhaps to compete with the K'Chain. After they failed she tried again with the Andii a millenia later. The deragoth are those hounds of/from Darkness that remain. MD doesn't seem like the most talkative of people, it's quite possible that the Andii would know nothing if this was the case and I don't see the Forkrul or the Jaghut, or even the Imass all that interested in enlightening them if they even knew themselves.

[SiriusL]

A couple things...

We don't know that the Hounds of Darkness have anything to do with Mother Dark or KG.
[quote name='"HoC UK mmpb' date=' p.819"']"You called the Deragoth 'Hounds of Darkness'. Are they children of Mother Dark, then?"
"They are no-ones children." Osric growled, then he shook his head. "They have that stench about them, but in truth I have no idea. It just seemed an appropriate name. 'Deragoth' in the Tiste Andii tongue."
"Well", L'oric muttered, "actually it would Dera'tin'jeragoth."[/quote]

It's possible that they were just badass mortal creatures with no connection to any other warren.

Second, according to Onrack, the Hounds of Shadow predate the Human First Empire (and thus Dessimbelackis and the "pact", and apparently go all the way back to the Imass First Empire.

Onrack: The Logros crossed paths with them [the hounds of shadow] only once, long ago, in the time of the First Empire. Seven in number. Serving an unknown master, yet bent on destruction.
Trull: The human First Empire, or yours?
Onrack: I know little of the human empire of that name. We were drawn into its heart but once, Trull Sengar, in answer to the chaos of th Soletaken and D'ivers. The Hounds made no appearance during that slaughter.[/quote]

(hehe...I just made a typo and called him Oncrack. Why didn't I think of that before!)


I like Seed's theory about the Deragoth shadows, though. Tie that in with Oncrack's discussion about trapping beings in stone to take away their power. Maybe seven of the Deragoth were trapped in the statues a three hundred millenia ago, and their shadows escaped. That still doesn't explain the seven with whom Dessimbelackis made the pact. Damn! Coincidence?

[Tarr]

So the hounds of shadow were around in the time of the imass first empire but were they serving the edur? onrack doesn't know but he knows of the edur but would he know if the edur were commanding the hounds of shadow?

The degaroth were around in the time of the eres and may have predated the K'chain chemelle, that would make them older than the jaghut! Hold on didn't the matrons prevent the elder gods getting in to wu? so were the hell do they come from?

I noticed that we have two groups of doggy god's, the degaroth and togg and fandery is there a link after all both are apparently older than the elder gods? so before the K'chain there were BIG dogs!

[Mentalist]

WOLVES!!!!!!!!
also, apparently, they may be related to the Jaghut--recall Toc's comment that the Jaghut "stole Winter: from Togg...

[D'rek]

Here's some mad puzzle-fitting speculation:

Togg and Fanderay are said somewhere to be beasts who ascended from running with humans (or their predecessors). In the memory-warren, Osserc talks about some Eres who were running with wolves instead of the Deragoth and had learned to stand upright. Togg and Fanderay probably come from around the time the dominance of such packs switched to human-dominance and wolf-domestication. T&F would have been "primal-worshipped" by the first of these dominant-sentient Eres and ascended.

At the same time, there were still Deragoth running about other parts of 7C with unsentient-Eres and K'Chain on the other continents. The Matrons' magic means the Elder Gods had not yet come to the Malaziworld, and thus the Tiste races probably had not either.

Osserc says the Jaghut were already on the scene at this point, living in secluded places geographically far from his little memory-dream. We know the K'Chain dominated the Jaghut, but I imagine that at least the Jaghut on 7C didn't have that problem.

And since the Imass First Empire was in 7C, and they came about as descended from the Eres, and yet had seemingly little interaction with the Deragoth, I would think it likely that the surviving Deragoth were entrapped in their stone idols by the Jaghut. after all, the statues were reached easily by Paran by crossing the Jaghut death-bridge.

The Nascent being highly connected with the Edur is not especially problematic, as the Tiste invasions could very easily have come about while the Deragoth were slowly dying out and the Imass rising to power in 7C. If you imagine 7C to be generally isolated from the events of the Tiste, K'Chain and EGs on the other continents, it isn't hard to believe that the Deragoth died out and the Imass FE rose without having much contact with the other races and EGs at all (except the jaghut).

With the FE lasting a very long time (long enough to spread to most of the othe continents) the Deragoth would have had plenty of time to cast their shadows into the Shadow Warren (any of them) and then return as the Hounds.

[Tarr]

@ Kud13 Wolves are distantly related to canines and totally pwn any cats they come across for example...

Treach v. Degaroth = happy Degaroth + mangled carcass + (you don't wanna know)

[Aptorian]

So you think an ay would pawn an Emlava? A sabretooth tiger vs a big wolf?

[Tarr]

Yes cause they don't fight fair. It wouldn't be one on one it would be a pack on one as envinced in tool's slaying of the emlava mother. They hunt as a pack, perhaps a pride of lions would do the same.

Plus lets look at the "heavy hitters" of each group the cats have treach and kilava while hounds have the degaroth and the hounds of shadow who would win?

For example although treach was attacking the K'chain in MOI he was losing and would soon have run out of followers, while the tlan ay as we have seen in MOI can whoop K'chain ass and take no loses and the degaroth kept them out of 7 cities

[Ahk-Thenrah]

quick query- the nascent is a fragment of kurald emurlahn, right?

What the fuck were dogs aspected to darkness(whether or not MD pushed them out is irrelevant) doing hiding out in a shadow pocket warren? regardless of whether they lost their shadows. this thread has, like many others, instead of sating my curiosity, expanded upon it exponentially.
Damn it!

[Aptorian]

The Nascent may once have been aspected to shadow, but those kinds of things change... don't think too hard on it.