[lobo the wolfman]

Don't know if this theoy has been addressed before, thought l'll just throw it out there and see what happens.

Now one theoy is that MD's first kids where the elder gods, before the Tiste Andii, i thought so too untill i read this

Quote

The Bonehunters trade paperback pg 53

'Even when Darkness ruled alone' Ampelas replied, 'there were elemental forces. Moving unseen until the coming of Light. Bound only to their own laws. It is the nature of Darkness that it but rules itself.'

Now this is from Cotillion's talk with the three dragons chained in shadow. So it seems that the elder gods where always around, just not seen.

What if MD's first born where the pure blood Eleint. Think of it this way,

1: there is just MD and chaos going round in circles.
2: MD gathers a part of chaos and gives it flesh (Tiam), for company.
3: the dragons turn from Darkness and find thier own home, Starvald Demelain (which being the first warren chould be the center of all things)
4: MD lonley again looks inward and makes children of pure Dark, Tiste Andii, and all is good.
5: to keep the balance of things, Light is born and with it the Tiste Liosan.

At this point the Andii get shitty and leave Darkness and that event the need for control over the elements is well needed so come forth the elder gods!

This is my way of looking at things so any questions, arguments, or proof to shoot down my theoy is welcome.

[Aptorian]

Actually, Cots talk with Edgewalker about elementals, along with some stuff in Reapers Gale, makes it pretty clear... or clearer, what the elemental forces really are.

They're not dragons rather they are most likely forces equal to Mother Darks own power. They are universal constants, Darkness can't exist where Light exists, you can't make light with out fire, you can't make fire with out fuel for the fire, you can't have life with out water, etc, etc.

Erikson is slowly beginning to let us see more and more on the background of the Malazan universe.

[lobo the wolfman]

The point that i was trying to make is that i belive that dragons are MD's first kids, not the Tiste Andii or the elder gods as it was suggested before, or has SE already told us the other wise?

[Aptorian]

Ah, I see what you mean, I think I got myself sidetracked for no apparent reason.

I don't remember any direct link made between dragons and MD. Tiam is said to be the Matron and mother of all dragons and their spawn.

It's been my theory for a long time that the world of Wu existed long before MD got bored and made the Tiste races. I think the dragons also existed before MD tried to make order out of chaos. I sort of have the feeling that the dragon races exist on multiple plains and in other universes just like the Azath.

[Lisheo]

Aye, when SE mentioned the blood of dragons in one book, cant remember which lol sorry, he said how the blood of dragons seeps between realms when they die.

[lobo the wolfman]

I can't remeber where but it's been stated on a number of times that there was nothing before Darkness, chaos and the elements. So with MD being the only real person?!? that we know off well couldn't she be the start of all intellegent (and not so intellegent) life?

Also from Cot's talk with the dragons we know that there is some enmity between pure blood and soletaken dragons, could that not have started off as a kinda familiy fight?

And how did Rake, Osserc and the others know that drinking Tiam's blood would change them if not from the mother of them all. One of the Bitch sisters did say that Tiam was Osserc's sister in Midnight tides.

Quote

Midnight Tides pg196

Sukul Ankhadu said ' Pure Osserc, first son of Dark and Light , so precious! yet there you where, weaving your bllod with that whore - tell us, did you proclaim her your sister before or after you fucked her?

[Aptorian]

Lisheo;291808 said:

Aye, when SE mentioned the blood of dragons in one book, cant remember which lol sorry, he said how the blood of dragons seeps between realms when they die.

That's from the RG prologue. Don't know if it's mentioned earlier in the books.

lobo the wolfman;291809 said:

I can't remeber where but it's been stated on a number of times that there was nothing before Darkness, chaos and the elements. So with MD being the only real person?!? that we know off well couldn't she be the start of all intellegent (and not so intellegent) life?

We've heard a lot of conflicting ideas on this. In RG we get some new theories that sort of turn everything upside down. The only thing I'm sure about is that before the holds there was wandering, which is want the elements were doing back then, wandering without a system to bind them.

lobo the wolfman;291809 said:

And how did Rake, Osserc and the others know that drinking Tiam's blood would change them if not from the mother of them all. One of the Bitch sisters did say that Tiam was Osserc's sister in Midnight tides.

You're going to have to come up with a quote here. Osserc and Tiam being siblings? Sounds strange, but it lends credit to the theory that Osserc was a real Elder God and not just an ascendant Liosan in the same way Rake and Ruin are ascendant Andii.

[Lisheo]

Ah right. Hmmm. Oh well. But I think the idea of MD being an intelligent being is a bit off-the-walls. MD was more like a magical force than anything, I suspect.

[lobo the wolfman]

@apt: i did give i just shorted it becasue l'm lazy.

@Lisheo: maybe intelligent beyond what we understand or a being that acts more on impluse more then anything. Either way i think Rake got into a fight with her about Light, and a conversation between two Andii in GOTM gives the impression that MD is capable of thought.

If Osserc is a ture elder god then so is Rake if he choses to be. I don't think he wants godhood becasue he feels too much responseablity towards the Andii in Moon Spawn.
Look at all the other elder gods, Meal is hiding from his worshippers, Osserc dosen't give two shits about the Liosan niether did Killy, about her 'children' before she ended up in the Azarth and so on....

[Ammanas]

Lisheo;291811 said:

Ah right. Hmmm. Oh well. But I think the idea of MD being an intelligent being is a bit off-the-walls. MD was more like a magical force than anything, I suspect.

How can you create anything without thought? Thought requires intelligence, ergo, MD has intelligence.

[Venerus]

Aptorian;291810 said:

We've heard a lot of conflicting ideas on this. In RG we get some new theories that sort of turn everything upside down. The only thing I'm sure about is that before the holds there was wandering, which is want the elements were doing back then, wandering without a system to bind them.

I'm nitpicking, but acc. Draconus, the wandering is bound, with its own system and everything:

Quote

'Hear me, please. Before the Houses, there were Holds. Before Holds, there was wandering. Your own words, yes? But you were both right and wrong. Not wandering, but migration. A seasonal round—predictable, cyclical. What seemed aimless, random, was in truth fixed, bound to its own laws. A truth—a power—I failed to recognize.'

Doesn't help answer the OP's post at all I'm worthless!

[Aptorian]

Well as you notice, if Draconus fails to understand the cyclical nature of the powers he is himself a part of, then there might be other things he's not quite fully aware of...

[Mentalist]

hmm
I like the idea of EGs as first kids of MD

Eleint have existed in SD. it is their home, as far as I'm concerned.

the greatest level of metaphysics--chaos v order (as supposedly personified of MD currently eludes clarification inth way i see things.... so I don't try to figure it out just yet...)

that being said, I rally need a re-read..

[lobo the wolfman]

The EG as MD first kids never made much sence to me, as long as there is subsence in the universe there is some kind of element. It's just untill Light came along the the elements started to take on forms and personalitys of there own, thus the EG.

It's been stated enough times that if you worship or belive storng enough in some thing then a spirt or the like is made, maybe the EG's where born of the need for the Tiste and dragon races to understand the working of the cosmos.

[Mentalist]

by the same token, we could say that MD was worshipped into existance. i don't entirely buy it. some of the EGs appear on the draconic family tree. They lack direct aspects. on top of that, Draconus seems VERY protective of everything Dark. i feel there must be a connection.

[lobo the wolfman]

Maybe the EG's are on the draconic family tree because they invited themself's along to the feast of Tiam's blood, like far removed cousins you don't like that show up and eat all your food and drink all your beer and then piss off with out a thank you.

I think Draconus seems not to like anything he can't control, besides without Dark there is nothing, so maybe he's just saving his own ase.

[SiriusL]

lobo the wolfman;292087 said:

Maybe the EG's are on the draconic family tree because they invited themself's along to the feast of Tiam's blood, like far removed cousins you don't like that show up and eat all your food and drink all your beer and then piss off with out a thank you.

I think Draconus seems not to like anything he can't control, besides without Dark there is nothing, so maybe he's just saving his own ase.

Cotillion's discussion with the dragons made me think there was more to being Soletaken than just the conferred benefits of dragon-hood. The eleint are bound by K'rul's structure, and maybe some others as well. But the Soletaken get to be dragons, and still do whatever they want with no real structure. This is what pisses the eleint off. I can't back that up with quotes because I don't have the books anywhere handy.

I also really like the idea that the EGs came into being because of the worship of others. Remember the giant water spirit/demon in MT? That was created almost solely by the belief of the people. The EGs were, too--the belief that the elemental forces had to be worshipped and had to receive sacrifices. The fact that Elder worship always involves blood is part of the evolutionary theme in the books. Now that K'rul made magic accessible to average people, blood worship isn't necessary.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Blood worship isn't necessary, but certainly not obsolete. K'rul didn't change the game, he changed the blood. To his own.

I think the EGs are included because there's no contextual place to put them in any other reference. I mean, they're powerful, ancient, and just as remarkable as any of the Soletaken chillun's of MD, so why not (the author might have asked) throw them in there too?

Or perhaps they're Eleint. o.0