[kage]

exactly what kind of magic does the Empty Hold entail. is it aspected by something, (ex. Ruse the sea, Mockra the Mind), is it not said?

[Aptorian]

I'm going on a limb here but as far as I remember the empty hold is connected to the letherii and the absence of death.

The Letherii worshipped the empty hold, I even think that was what the Ceda channeled to duel the Warlock King.

[Biggles]

Aptorian;289706 said:

I'm going on a limb here but as far as I remember the empty hold is connected to the letherii and the absence of death.

The Letherii worshipped the empty hold, I even think that was what the Ceda channeled to duel the Warlock King.

Udinaas' thoughts on the Empty Hold (MT, p.31, UK Trade):
'The Hold that had existed, unseen, at the very beginning. The Empty Hold - heart of Letherii worship - that was at the very centre of the vast spiral of realms. Home to the Throne that knew no King, home to the Wanderer Knight, and to the Mistress who waited still, alone in her bed of dreams. To the Watcher, who witnessed all, and the Walker, who patrolled borders not even he could see. To the Saviour, whose outstretched hand was never grasped. And, finally, to the Betrayer, whose loving embrace destroyed all it touched.'

I don't think it ever clearly states how it is aspected.

[Aptorian]

I don't think it was. It was just empty, a void where greed and... stuff lived. Human power building.

BAD BAD BAD REAPERS GALE SPOILER:

Spoiler

The chancellor mentioned something about, after Rhulad was gone, that the Letherii throne, which resembles the letherii empty hold, should stay empty.

[kage]

that spoiler said nothing! grrrrrr

[Venerus]

I always thought it represented capitalism -- that the Empty Hold is like The American Dream. "Anyone can be king!" as approx. equal to "anyone can have the wife, 2.5 kids, dream house and picket fence!" that perpetuates and justifies many of the economic and human rights injustices we (americans) perpetuate on the lower classes, and that recruits/dupes the poor into accepting it.

In "Nickel and Dimed" Barbara Ehrenreich lays out her take on American economics, and her vision is similarly brutal to the Letheri ways. It's always been my assumption that the Letheri were based on America -- the power-through-debt, the manifest destiny, destruction of peripheral cultures through unequal trading and substance addiction (alcohol etc). The Letheri could just be any imperialist culture though, the patterns aren't new or unique to the USA, in which case the empty hold's connection to the american dream wouldn't be particularly strong or coherent.

[Wampyry]

Here's an answer so simple it must be wrong:

The Empty Hold is not aspected to anything.

Gothos' ritual blocked the pathways to the Hold of the Dead so the Hold and
its Tile faded away replaced by the Empty Hold and its Tile. Next time Byrs
looks at the Cedant he will see that the Empty Hold is now replaced by the
Hold of the Dead and its Tile.

If the Empty Hold is still in the Cedant anywhere towards the end of TBH or
anywhere at all in RG, this idea is shot down.

[ShadowOwl]

It would be easier to speculate in the RG thread, as by the end of the book, we have more info than the bits in MT.

[Wampyry]

ShadowOwl;291235 said:

It would be easier to speculate in the RG thread, as by the end of the book, we have more info than the bits in MT.

OK, thanks. Thought it was too easy

[beru]

i have allways seen it as arcane magick... like pure power that damges by transfering energy to your atoms making them move away from each other... donno it was just my way of seeing it..

[HoosierDaddy]

beru, on Dec 26 2008, 01:20 AM, said:

i have allways seen it as arcane magick... like pure power that damges by transfering energy to your atoms making them move away from each other... donno it was just my way of seeing it..

Well, we've seen that Hold magic is much wilder and harder to control than Warren magic, that could be why you see it as pure power... there is less refinement. More brutal than subtle.

[Denerynn]

I've always wondered what the Empty Hold was aspected to.The idea that it ISN'T aspected would make sense, given its name and lack of... indication. I should specify that I'm halfway through Bone Hunters, so I know nothing from Reaper's Gale.

As for that bit about the americans, I agree. Throughout my read, I kept thinking that the Letherii were exactly like the americans. Whether this is intentional or not remains to be seen.

[Wry]

I assumed the empty hold was Shadow - KE or a chunk thereof

From the piece Stabros quoted:
Udinaas' thoughts on the Empty Hold (MT, p.31, UK Trade):
'The Hold that had existed, unseen, at the very beginning. The Empty Hold - heart of Letherii worship - that was at the very centre of the vast spiral of realms. Home to the Throne that knew no King, home to the Wanderer Knight, and to the Mistress who waited still, alone in her bed of dreams. To the Watcher, who witnessed all, and the Walker, who patrolled borders not even he could see. To the Saviour, whose outstretched hand was never grasped. And, finally, to the Betrayer, whose loving embrace destroyed all it touched.'

'The Hold that had existed, unseen, at the very beginning. The Empty Hold - heart of Letherii worship - that was at the very centre of the vast spiral of realms.
-At the very beginning of Letherii worship would have been he time of the First Empire, and it's been theorised that the FE and Dessim were playing round with a fragment of KE.

Home to the Throne that knew no King,
-KE has no king on the throne

home to the Wanderer Knight, and to the Mistress who waited still, alone in her bed of dreams. To the Watcher, who witnessed all... To the Saviour, whose outstretched hand was never grasped.
- not sure who these are

and the Walker, who patrolled borders not even he could see.
- Obviously Edgewalker

And, finally, to the Betrayer, whose loving embrace destroyed all it touched.'
- Again, obviously Scabby

This post has been edited by Wry: 06 February 2009 - 11:54 PM

[Waffles]

You forget the duality of the Empty Hold too. Remember at one point during one of Featherwitch's games there is a reference to there being 2 of everything. 2 Mistresses, Saviours, Betrayers, etc.

So maybe the Empty Hold is a human mirror to all the other holds active on Lether?

And Seren Pedac at one point is called a Mistress of the Empty Hold. Watcher was referenced as Gothos somewhere (probably not active in that role anymore though).

Spoiler

I think Edgewalker is only active in Shadow, he at least gives that impression in TBH, seems kind of like he is stuck there.

[limping dog]

Waffles, on Apr 7 2009, 02:52 PM, said:

And Seren Pedac at one point is called a Mistress of the Empty Hold. Watcher was referenced as Gothos somewhere (probably not active in that role anymore though).

Gothos was called Watcher by the Sengar brothers and their 2 companions when they traveled to retrieve the sword.

---
page 203 (US edition)

'The Hold of Ice,' Trull said. 'Such as the Letherii describe in their faith.'
'The Hand of the Watcher,' Binadas said, 'who waited until the war was done before striding forward to unleash his power.'
---

Guess the wanderering knight could be Traveller, Dassem.

[Kryphon]

Stabro, on Apr 15 2008, 09:34 AM, said:

Aptorian;289706 said:

I'm going on a limb here but as far as I remember the empty hold is connected to the letherii and the absence of death.

The Letherii worshipped the empty hold, I even think that was what the Ceda channeled to duel the Warlock King.

Udinaas' thoughts on the Empty Hold (MT, p.31, UK Trade):
'The Hold that had existed, unseen, at the very beginning. The Empty Hold - heart of Letherii worship - that was at the very centre of the vast spiral of realms. Home to the Throne that knew no King, home to the Wanderer Knight, and to the Mistress who waited still, alone in her bed of dreams. To the Watcher, who witnessed all, and the Walker, who patrolled borders not even he could see. To the Saviour, whose outstretched hand was never grasped. And, finally, to the Betrayer, whose loving embrace destroyed all it touched.'

I don't think it ever clearly states how it is aspected.

My thoughts a year after reading this passage (several times, thinking there was meaning there that I was missing) is the same as it was then... How fucking stupid! I vote for this to be labeled the most useless passage in all of these books. Unless there is some brilliant revelation in TtH about Letherii worship, which I doubt. SE usually is cryptic and I am used to waiting for some things to become clear... Not so with this passage.

Or maybe I'm the stupid one. It's happened before.

[Wry]

Kryphon, on May 15 2009, 01:14 AM, said:

Stabro, on Apr 15 2008, 09:34 AM, said:

Aptorian;289706 said:

I'm going on a limb here but as far as I remember the empty hold is connected to the letherii and the absence of death.

The Letherii worshipped the empty hold, I even think that was what the Ceda channeled to duel the Warlock King.

Udinaas' thoughts on the Empty Hold (MT, p.31, UK Trade):
'The Hold that had existed, unseen, at the very beginning. The Empty Hold - heart of Letherii worship - that was at the very centre of the vast spiral of realms. Home to the Throne that knew no King, home to the Wanderer Knight, and to the Mistress who waited still, alone in her bed of dreams. To the Watcher, who witnessed all, and the Walker, who patrolled borders not even he could see. To the Saviour, whose outstretched hand was never grasped. And, finally, to the Betrayer, whose loving embrace destroyed all it touched.'

I don't think it ever clearly states how it is aspected.

My thoughts a year after reading this passage (several times, thinking there was meaning there that I was missing) is the same as it was then... How fucking stupid! I vote for this to be labeled the most useless passage in all of these books. Unless there is some brilliant revelation in TtH about Letherii worship, which I doubt. SE usually is cryptic and I am used to waiting for some things to become clear... Not so with this passage.

Or maybe I'm the stupid one. It's happened before.

Hmmm... i always thouht that passage was refering to shadow.

Throne that knew no King - obvious one there
Wanderer Knight - Trull who did a lot of wandering
the Mistress who waited still, alone in her bed of dreams - Not too sure here
To the Watcher, who witnessed all - Udinass, he was in service to the Edur.
Walker, who patrolled borders not even he could see - Again obvious, Edgewalker
To the Saviour, whose outstretched hand was never grasped - Another mystery, though i feel i should know it.
the Betrayer - Stabanandii, obviously

Plus it would make sense, If Letherii hold magic is focused on the empty hold - and the empty hold is a chunk of KE - and Lether is a first empire colony - and the first empire used KE chunks to power their huge ritual - and there's odd connections between the empire and KE/Shadow (hounds of shadow/Deragoth/Dessie, Statues in the nascent, etc.

Actually that makes alot of sense.If the first empire is descended from imass, who dustified tellann leaving the first empire basically without a racial warren, they might well cast around for an alternate. They then find a large remaining chunk of KE and use that.

This post has been edited by Wry: 15 May 2009 - 09:27 AM

[lobo the wolfman]

I always thought that the empty hold was just a lack of faith by the Letherii. As in, there is no god watching over as so we can do whatever to each other. It's was said in MT that the Letherii only belived in money, hence thats where the concept of indebted came from. Also the Letherii that prayed to the Errant, where parying not to be noticed or else they would have bad luck.

Thats how i always saw it.

[Eispeis]

Wry, on May 15 2009, 03:03 AM, said:

Throne that knew no King - obvious one there
RG Spoiler

Spoiler

Wanderer Knight - Trull, Knight of shadow who did a lot of wandering

the Mistress who waited still, alone in her bed of dreams - Not too sure here
To the Watcher, who witnessed all - Udinass, he was in service to the Edur.
Walker, who patrolled borders not even he could see - Again obvious, Edgewalker
To the Saviour, whose outstretched hand was never grasped - Another mystery, though i feel i should know it.
the Betrayer - Stabanandii, obviously

I support this theory, but you might want to spoiler the 2nd one there (as I've done when quoting you) as it is a spoiler for RG. Read those pages yesterday

[Kryphon]

Eispeis, on May 15 2009, 01:16 AM, said:

Wry, on May 15 2009, 03:03 AM, said:

Throne that knew no King - obvious one there
RG Spoiler

Spoiler

Wanderer Knight - Trull, Knight of shadow who did a lot of wandering

the Mistress who waited still, alone in her bed of dreams - Not too sure here
To the Watcher, who witnessed all - Udinass, he was in service to the Edur.
Walker, who patrolled borders not even he could see - Again obvious, Edgewalker
To the Saviour, whose outstretched hand was never grasped - Another mystery, though i feel i should know it.
the Betrayer - Stabanandii, obviously

I support this theory, but you might want to spoiler the 2nd one there (as I've done when quoting you) as it is a spoiler for RG. Read those pages yesterday

What do you know, I AM the stupid one! Anyways, I think it's wierd that they are all alive/present in the same era. Except for Scabby, who was MIA for a few millenia. Just odd that they all know each other and they could potentially hold all those seats in the Hold.