[Mentalist]

Otataral Island was supposedly created during the Ritual of the Beast, according to Treach's flashbacks from MoI.
Blood--in many ways, magic...

[Ammanas]

Aptorian;288728 said:

Does the lack of Ottataral at these events mean that the unleashing of power needs to be uncontrolled, wild and damamaging to the world itself? Probably.

Finally I want to know more about its properties. We've discussed this in other threads but why is Ottataral not able to stop the T'lan Imass and supposedly the other Elder Warrens aswell? Does that mean that Ottataral is something K'rull made along with the fashioning of the new paths?

That's it. K'rul made it to provide a defense against the silly, stupid, savage humans wielding magic. Maybe he anticipated the Elder races would be more benign than they turned out to be. A weak theory, but hey..

[SiriusL]

Aptorian;288728 said:

Finally I want to know more about its properties. We've discussed this in other threads but why is Ottataral not able to stop the T'lan Imass and supposedly the other Elder Warrens aswell? Does that mean that Ottataral is something K'rull made along with the fashioning of the new paths?

And why does the derivative, blood oil, make people go crazy with lust (be it for blood or sex)?

I think the fact that otataral works against Kurald Emurlahn is telling, since KE is supposed to be Elder. I wonder if it has something to do with order vs. disorder, again. I have an idea about this just barely forming in my head, and it involves the passage I quoted above about dragon's blood. The younger warrens are all formed through dragon's blood, and otataral works against them. KE is fragmented and broken, and otataral works against it.

There has to be a relationship.

[tiam]

Bubba;288723 said:

I think the actual impact of the "Fall" created it. But unlike the statues, CG was animate and could remove himself from the area. Do we know where he landed? Maybe where the Toblakie(spelling) live? Their source of the O-stuff?

Id ahve to say no as the CG fell over Jacaruku and Korelri.

In the case of otateral wat we know.

Sources
Teblor mountains- Likely caused by the massive battle against the FA that led to 10000 Imass being killed and forming bone pass.

Otateral island- Caused by the soletaken ritual of the beast that went awry and led to the Imass going apeshit and killing off the FE.

Alternative theory to this. In HOC Loric ( i think am on MOI reread and struggling) stated that the first statue was found in the otateral mines. Now this begs the question would a massive unleashing of sorcery brought about by a soletaken ritual gone awry and being fully unleashed or perhaps a couple of Bonecasters going nuts against the FA in the Teblor mountains create mass amounts of otateral?

Possibly but maybe were all thinking to small time on this and its actually the JG that cause otateral. No matter what the Elder races /gods/ascendents/drgaons can unleash it seems to me that no matter what they can come up with (or atleast have come up with) pales into insignificance against massive jade statues being flung into Wu from another world to stem the wound from the CG.

[D'rek]

tiam;289864 said:

Alternative theory to this. In HOC Loric ( i think am on MOI reread and struggling) stated that the first statue was found in the otateral mines. Now this begs the question would a massive unleashing of sorcery brought about by a soletaken ritual gone awry and being fully unleashed or perhaps a couple of Bonecasters going nuts against the FA in the Teblor mountains create mass amounts of otateral?

Possibly but maybe were all thinking to small time on this and its actually the JG that cause otateral. No matter what the Elder races /gods/ascendents/drgaons can unleash it seems to me that no matter what they can come up with (or atleast have come up with) pales into insignificance against massive jade statues being flung into Wu from another world to stem the wound from the CG.

We don't know that the jade is a response to the CG. Any relationship between the jade and CG is circumspect at best. As far as we've seen, the damage to Korel from the CG's fall pales in comparison to the damage a mortal like Kallor can do to a continent like Jacruku. K'rul fashioned a palce for Jacruku so it wouldn't damage the world, but he did not do the same for Korel. This is all off-topic anyways.

The otataral in 7C could very well be an answer to the jade trapped within that island. However, the jade arms were able to act via Heboric's will and absorb the impact of the falling statues. Clearly the otataral didn't have any effect while that was happening, so the otataral must be a very inefficient response. Additionally, Crust remarks upon a 'mountain of otataral' resulting from an impressive display of sorcery. If a mortal can witness and survive an otataral-creating magical occurence, then it would appear the enormity of magics used does not need to be so grand.

[Venerus]

A said:

The otataral in 7C could very well be an answer to the jade trapped within that island. However, the jade arms were able to act via Heboric's will and absorb the impact of the falling statues. Clearly the otataral didn't have any effect while that was happening, so the otataral must be a very inefficient response. Additionally, Crust remarks upon a 'mountain of otataral' resulting from an impressive display of sorcery. If a mortal can witness and survive an otataral-creating magical occurence, then it would appear the enormity of magics used does not need to be so grand.

I always wondered about that. During DHG and HoC various people say that the Jade is overpowering the "rust" (otataral) in Heborics non-fener hand. I'm curious whether or not that had some influence on freeing up the hands during RG from the island's negating powa'.

[Abyss]

A said:

...the jade arms were able to act via Heboric's will and absorb the impact of the falling statues. Clearly the otataral didn't have any effect while that was happening, so the otataral must be a very inefficient response. ...

Not exactly. Heboric had an existing link to the Jade via his dreams in HoC. By way of taking on the Sheild Anvil role (open to debate whether he always had it or exerted his will to make the switch), he reached in absorbed the souls into himself.

No souls = no power = no jade chunks.

It had everything to do with Heboric's (and the general human capacity) for taking on the pain of others (see also Itkovian).

The otataral was a 'poisoning' Heboric absorbed in the mines. It was only in his body and per Kulp in DG the otataral was losing the fight against the jade power - but it did surpress it for a while apparently.

By the time Hood sent Heboric back into his body to handle the Chunks, it seems the Otataral was faded or at least less. There was no ref to it at all in HoC that I can recall.

So the Jade chunk thing was a measure of Heb's soul, not the otataral.

But it may be a question of degree - an island of Otataral may be enough to keep dormant whatever Jade chunks were sitting there until the Whirlwind started and exposed the Jade finger.


- Abyss, soul man...

[Dancer+]

Apty Dapty, the mods/admins/leaders of the forum will not be pleased with your (drunk) spamming. I don't want to see you getting temp banned or anything my dear.

[bhok'arala]

You have ot remember, the otatoral isn't the only poison in heboric. the jade could be seen just as bad as the otatoral, especially from heboric's point of view. But i agree, the jade-ness could have grown stronger after the hand was unburied. That hand however, if accompanied by a whole body, would not only be huge, but actually could be deadlier than Icarium if it was fully uncovered

[Mentalist]

well, in DG, when Kulp looked at him, one hand was directly connected to Fener through chaos, and the other was a mix of Otataral + jade. Heboric Insta-healed Stormy with the Fener hand, during which the connection tot he warrn of Fener slipped into Stormy, and ten later we are told that the jade won the battle against otataral for his hands...
I'm gonna need to do a re-read to find thepoint of this, but what I'm trying to say is that byt he end, the only actual power in his "ghost hands" was the Jade.

[D'rek]

Abyss;289950 said:

Not exactly. Heboric had an existing link to the Jade via his dreams in HoC. By way of taking on the Sheild Anvil role (open to debate whether he always had it or exerted his will to make the switch), he reached in absorbed the souls into himself.

No souls = no power = no jade chunks.

It had everything to do with Heboric's (and the general human capacity) for taking on the pain of others (see also Itkovian).

The otataral was a 'poisoning' Heboric absorbed in the mines. It was only in his body and per Kulp in DG the otataral was losing the fight against the jade power - but it did surpress it for a while apparently.

By the time Hood sent Heboric back into his body to handle the Chunks, it seems the Otataral was faded or at least less. There was no ref to it at all in HoC that I can recall.

So the Jade chunk thing was a measure of Heb's soul, not the otataral.

But it may be a question of degree - an island of Otataral may be enough to keep dormant whatever Jade chunks were sitting there until the Whirlwind started and exposed the Jade finger.


- Abyss, soul man...

I was harping more on the bit of the ginormous jade arms lifting themselves out of the island and reaching for the falling statues, with a magical penumbra surrounding them. Whether it was Heboric wielding them or no, it still seems like a potent display of jade-power, which if the otataral was in place to prevent, it is doing a crappy job.

[Abyss]

A said:

I was harping more on the bit of the ginormous jade arms lifting themselves out of the island ...

Oh, THOSE arms! Okay, i thought you were ref'ing Heb's magic hands, tho my above nattering stil holds for discussion purposes.

I figured those arms were a visual expression of the magic happening when Heboric reached into the jade chunks and pulled the souls out - ie: that was what it looked like, but there weren't a thousand big green arms sticking out of the sand on Otataral Island just then

We've seen elsewhere how human minds interpret magic in ways that make sense,even if not exactly accurate (Brys on the tiles in MT, Beak's whole candle thing, Kulp's illusion = reality trick in DG...).

I do wonder tho', whether anyone touching a Jade chunk would have a Heboric-like experience, or if that just happened because of his unique situation of being tied to his God's warren, but cut off from his God, AND tainted by Otataral, AND near death...


- Abyss, prefers smooth to chunky....

[Warqueen]

I'd like to know why the elder gods left Kallor free to run around....every other bad guy got stuck in a hole somewhere and sealed in....why did they just curse him and let him go??....and did the Azath houses exist then or did they only come along with the cities...since each one is in a city...

[Aptorian]

Tremolo isn't in a city. Neither is the Refugium Azath.

[Dancer+]

Warqueen;290367 said:

I'd like to know why the elder gods left Kallor free to run around....every other bad guy got stuck in a hole somewhere and sealed in....why did they just curse him and let him go??....and did the Azath houses exist then or did they only come along with the cities...since each one is in a city...

They hated Kallor so much they would rather disarm him completely, making him powerless and watch him suffer for the rest of eternity. I think this is partially because of the Fall and Kallor destroying a whole continent. Wu must have been in serious trouble around that time.

[Venerus]

Abyss;290282 said:

Oh, THOSE arms! Okay, i thought you were ref'ing Heb's magic hands, tho my above nattering stil holds for discussion purposes.

I figured those arms were a visual expression of the magic happening when Heboric reached into the jade chunks and pulled the souls out - ie: that was what it looked like, but there weren't a thousand big green arms sticking out of the sand on Otataral Island just then

We've seen elsewhere how human minds interpret magic in ways that make sense,even if not exactly accurate (Brys on the tiles in MT, Beak's whole candle thing, Kulp's illusion = reality trick in DG...).

I do wonder tho', whether anyone touching a Jade chunk would have a Heboric-like experience, or if that just happened because of his unique situation of being tied to his God's warren, but cut off from his God, AND tainted by Otataral, AND near death...


- Abyss, prefers smooth to chunky....

The only help I've got is:

Quote

In any case, those severed hands were as poison to Fener. He could not touch them, nor could he remove them from his realm. He burned the tattoos announcing his denial upon the high priest's skin, and so sealed the virulent power of the hands, at least for the time being. And that should have been that. Eventually, the priest would die, and his spirit would come to Fener to retrieve what had been cruelly and wrongfully taken from him. That spirit would then become the weapon of Fener's wrath, his vengeance upon the priests of the fouled temple, and indeed upon the Claw and the Empress herself. A dark storm awaited the Malazan Empire, Whiskeyjack.'
'But something's happened.'
'Aye. The High Priest has, by design or chance, come into contact with the Warren of Chaos—an object, perhaps, forged within that warren. The protective seal around his severed hands was obliterated by that vast, uncontrolled surge of power. And, finding Fener, those hands… pushed.'

My thought is that anyone touching the statues would have felt a chaotic "surge of power" as Rake describes it. As for the specific effects... I still think Rath'Fener got what just about anyone who wasn't in Heboric's specific situation would have gotten.

[Kurt Montandon]

Aptorian;290369 said:

Tremolo isn't in a city. Neither is the Refugium Azath.

Nor is the dead one in the Jhag Odhan.

[Ayrin]

Hasn't it been rather explicitly stated that the Azath appear where they are needed? Where uncontrolled power threaten with too much destruction?

Can't remember where this is said currently, so I'm not sure, but possibly in GotM, about the Finnest Azath.

Ah, and I would really like to know more about the Azath! Somewhat doubt there will be much more info about them in TtH though .

[Thelomen Toblerone]

I disagree, I think the Azath are such a big piece of the puzzle that it'd be hard for TtH et alnot to discuss them- don't forget, we still have Rallick, Vorcan and Kalam trapped in them, so explanations as to what occurs there are needed, also Paran will still presumably be using them for transport, and the whole ST/Cot using them for ascendancy thing needs to be addressed, not to mention further discussion of the Iccy fiasco.

I think the Azath are at the heart of what's going on and what will ultimately happen, personally.

[Venerus]

One of the core themes has been the CG teaming up w/Chaos to wreak havoc on Wu. The Azath and the Deck are allied w/Order, and Paran is their go-to guy. Seems like until Chaos vs Azath/Deck and Dragnipur conflict is resolved, the series isn't over.

Just agreeing with TT, really.