[Raraku]

Well MD is hiding (read retreated) to KG while Burn is sleeping and dreaming
but i still see the similarities cause they both went out of the game because someone hurt them

[MTS]

didn't Burn decide to sleep at the first chaining so as to confine the CG to Burn's flesh and not allow him to roam free? if im right (admittedly, perhaps not lol) then Burn (awake) could be considered as a living embodiment of the power of the land. a focus, for lack of a better word, with which the world's inherent power could be harnessed.

then again, i may be wrong. im just talking out of my arse, without any basis in fact lol.

btw didnt MD retreat in a futile effort to escape the K'Chain death spell that they set on her, in a spiteful "if-we-go-down-you-all-go-down" kinda deal? just checking, cos i can't remember the reason off the top of my head, and i don't have MT with me.

[Mentalist]

Burn went to sleep after A Chaining, we don't know which one. She's been around fro awhile, but she's only been asleep for some 1 thousand years..

[MTS]

kud13;284300 said:

She's been around for a while, but she's only been asleep for some 1 thousand years..

ah, yes there is that lol. the Fall was some 119,739 years before Burn's Sleep, according to the MoI prologue. i wonder, did it take that long for the Crippled God to become influential enough to necessitate the need for a Chaining? and if the CG was chained, yet Burn did not sleep at said Chaining, how was his corrupting influence negated? and also, why was Fener's involvement in the Chainings vital? i seem to be missing that tidbit. perhaps it hasnt been revealed yet, but i may have missed something somewhere.

[Spectrum]

Sinisdar Toste;283704 said:

most of the human counterpart warrens, what are actually the paths of k'ruls blood do not have an actually physical realm seperate from Burns world. mockra, ruse, serc, denul, d'riss, are all contained either within burn or k'rul. tennes is trickier to place, its not listed in the later glossaries, but is clearly path aspected to land, i think it is more connected to the spirits of the land, not in the way of pure spirit magic, but through the land to burns own power, somehow.

rashan, thyr, maenas, hoods path and t'riss are all either descended from elder warrens or a gods warren, and tennes falls in here to cuz it apparently has a few gods claiming it. this gives them an actual physical realm unlike the paths. though if tools remark about there being many elder warrens is true for all the paths, then ruse and serc etc could very well have had their own counterpart world outside of Wu/burn, but somehow i dont think it likely. denaeth rusen is mentioned as being the elder warren of the sea, from mael himself, no less, iirc, which kind of throws a wrench in my theory, but its seems to have either dissapeared or been co-opted into burn.

You missed one: Telas, the path of fire. Which is apparently descended from Tellann, which in turn hails from Kurald Thyrllan.

Also, it is possible that Denaeth Rusen is not a separate warren, but merely an older name for Ruse.

[Mentalist]

Mappo said:

ah, yes there is that lol. the Fall was some 119,739 years before Burn's Sleep, according to the MoI prologue. i wonder, did it take that long for the Crippled God to become influential enough to necessitate the need for a Chaining? and if the CG was chained, yet Burn did not sleep at said Chaining, how was his corrupting influence negated? and also, why was Fener's involvement in the Chainings vital? i seem to be missing that tidbit. perhaps it hasnt been revealed yet, but i may have missed something somewhere.

There have been multiple Chainings--the last one, apparently when Dancer was aalready around (100+ years before NoK).
I would assume that at one of the Chainings, the ascendants decided to attach CG to Burn, before that, they must've tried other options..

As for Fener, his power was needed, probably because he was one of the gods with the most followers, since just about any bunch of human would want to worship a god who brings luchk in war. After all, we know that Fener's MS died at the last chaining, prolly sacrificed along with Dasseem's daughter.

[Imperium Corruo]

I've thought about some of the same things in regard to the warrens relation to the world of Malaz (I like that more than Wu or Burn :-P). I make the connection with current multidimensional theories in Physics. Stuff like new universes being created from expanding bubbles of existing universes or within singularities, or new time lines spawned at each quantum mechanical change in direction of a particle . That's all peripheral, the point is in those circumstances it becomes unclear what the main universe is, or if such a thing even exists.

It seems that the world of Malaz plays some central role, granted that the perspective of the books is naturally going to make things appear this way, but it seems we can infer the same through the actions of the Gods. The Gods seem to take a significant interest in the affairs in the world of Malaz, even so far as some God's taking up residence there.

Why would the God's choose the world of Malaz which doesn't appear special in anyway in comparison to something like Kurald Gailan (the warren of dark if I messed that up), which was supposed to be the beginning of existance? (or a separate existance, correct if I'm wrong).

Lets look at it like this, The God's come from being worshiped or something like that, I think that has been established. So, there had to be an extant realm that had inhabitants to support the creation of the elder Gods, one of which was K'rul and he is supposed to have created all these other warrens. It seems like this would be what we now know as the world of Malaz. So as one point way back it seems like the world of Malaz was indeed the "main" realm.

At this point I suspect that my there is a high probability that my post is internally inconsistent and further conjecture will be meaningless. I'm quite exhausted.

[D'rek]

Alternatively and/or congruently, perhaps the Malaziworld is not magically aspected like the warren-worlds we've seen are. Surely the denizens of KG are more likely to worship whatever god(s) are Dark-aspected and so on, so a non-aspected world sort of levels the plane, allowing many gods to be worshipped equally.

[Ammanas]

A said:

Alternatively and/or congruently, perhaps the Malaziworld is not magically aspected like the warren-worlds we've seen are. Surely the denizens of KG are more likely to worship whatever god(s) are Dark-aspected and so on, so a non-aspected world sort of levels the plane, allowing many gods to be worshipped equally.

Perhaps the lack of a magical aspect in Malaz allows the existence of otataral ore/dragons to exist. The entire series I've been assuming otataral is the anomaly but in Malaz perhaps it's magic. Maybe that's why gods and ascendants are drawn to Malaz, just like explorers are drawn to new, uncivilized lands. Essentially they're bringing magic to a place that had none. Over millenia, the human accessible warrens evolved.

[Mentalist]

but you see, that's ust he thing: they DIDN'T evolve. The human-used warrens ("Paths") were all simultaneously shaped by K'rul...

[Venerus]

Eh, not exactly Kud. The warrens as we know them today are different from how they were when K'rul first made them. To wit:

HoC p 771. Apsalar and Crokus: said:

"The sorcery here is... strange"
His head snapped up. "What do you mean?"
"I am not sure. My familiarity with warrens is somewhat vicarious."
I know
"But," she continued, "if this is Kurald Emurlahn, then it is tainted in some way..."
(skip)
"Meaning the weilders of a warren can affect its nature. My late uncle would have found the notion fascinating. Not desecration, then, but denigration."
She slowly glanced around. "Rashan. Meanas. Thyr."
He comprehended the thought. "You think all warrens accessible to humans are in fact denigrations of Elder Warrens."
She raised her hands then. "Even blood decays."

And re: James' point about Malazland being magic-free: there's an interesting quote relating Otataral and how all things resist magic to some degree. I think it's from HoC... I'll go poke around.

[Ammanas]

I think it was also in HoC that Apsalar told Cutter that for two years ST/COT weren't in the Malaz realm.

Now that's a story or novella I'd SE or ICE to write.

If K'rul shaped the human accessible warrens simultaneously with the Elders, that would indicate he foresaw humans evolving. Not sure I buy that, unless he has some Ere'sal powers or uses a dream trick to foresee the future like the one in GOTM where they tell Pran Chole he'll be a bonecaster in 300k years or something.

[Tiger_sword]

james9700;284795 said:

If K'rul shaped the human accessible warrens simultaneously with the Elders, that would indicate he foresaw humans evolving. Not sure I buy that, unless he has some Ere'sal powers or uses a dream trick to foresee the future like the one in GOTM where they tell Pran Chole he'll be a bonecaster in 300k years or something.

I think the quote implies that he didn't shape them for humans, rather the warrens that he did shape have changed and in so doing have become accessable to humans.

"Even blood decays" is (I believe) a direct statement of K'ruls blood in which the warrens run. She is saying that the warrens are decaying (I believe changing is perhaps more correct). Perhaps it is the presence of humans that has changed the warrens for what purpose however, I'm not sure.

Does anyone have RG to hand, I believe the passage when mockra speaks may shed some light onto this change (I don't have my books with me)

[Stonecrow]

From TOR RG pg388

"Seren pedac, K'rul could not act alone in this sacrifice, lest he fill every warren with despair"

Does this mean that each of the warrens along with K'rul sacrificing his body for the blood required another person to sacrifice themselves to give the warren a conciousness. Maybe not one that could communicate like mockra but a conciousness none the less.

From TOR RG pg389
"As K'rul understood, the blood flows out, and then it returns. Weak, then enlivened. Round and round."

Looked like it should be here...

[Venerus]

Stonecrow;284807 said:

From TOR RG pg389
"As K'rul understood, the blood flows out, and then it returns. Weak, then enliven. Round and round."

That really does support the right heart/KG left heart/SD theory though.

[Ammanas]

TWO QUESTIONS AND ONE LUNATIC THEORY HERE

1)"What does High mean in regards to warren usage?"

Tayschrenn seemed stunned in GoTM when Tatter said "I have wards about my room, the innermost of which are High Thyr" We all know Brood practices High Denul. Of course, for many warrens, this is never mentioned--Pust never claims to use High Rashan or High Meanas, for example.

So does High indicate using an Elder warren? High Thyr=Kurald Thryllan, not Thyr. I thought it was merely a level of mastery but surely Brood, being an ascendant, isn't using the human warren Denul when practicing High Denul.

My guess was the ordinary warrens..Rashan, etc.. are used by people with certain amounts of skill. Other people with greater capacities for power can draw on equivalent Elder warrens.

This theory is flawed cuz 1) for many warrens, this is never mentioned--Pust never claims to use High Rashan or High Meanas, for example. 2) It's never been even remotely hinted that any mortal shadowdancer uses KG instead of Rashan for instance. I'm assuming KG would be the elder counterpart to Rashan.

2)What elder warrens did the KCCM and Assail use?

In GOTM, Tool tells Lorn there were many elder warrens, all born of SD. Of course, he doesn't elaborate with any names. So two of those many were used by KCCM and FA.

Regarding KCCM, I have a crazy theory that they are otataral aspected. My slim shred for this is two-fold--the KCCM seem tech oriented with skykeeps and in RG, Silchas recalls his original swords were broken by a Matron's death cry despite their heavy magical investment. Maybe Sorrit was killed cuz she birthed the KCCM.

Another lunatic theory! All manner of comments welcome.

[Stonecrow]

It's an intersting theory but it has been mentioned more than once that the KCCM Matrons were capable of massive rituals of destruction. I don't deny your possibility but how could the matrons accomplish something on such a huge scale when their aspect is anethema to their own ritual?

[Ammanas]

Stonecrow;284852 said:

It's an intersting theory but it has been mentioned more than once that the KCCM Matrons were capable of massive rituals of destruction. I don't deny your possibility but how could the matrons accomplish something on such a huge scale when they are anethema to their own ritual?

Hmm...time to raise my lunacy a notch--the Matrons are the only KCCM possessing magical abilities--the Long Tails are described by Ganath as "the truly chaotic ones" and the Nah'ruk aka Short tails "servants of machines, order in all its brutality" are tech based.

This was what the KCCM civil war was about. Magic vs tech.

[Stonecrow]

To prove your theory would would have to say that the short tales took otataral as their aspect after the fact because the long tales were magic dependent to begin with...

[thesalus]

Not quite...

Quote

And within this Matron resided the sorcerous capacity of her entire family.

Quote

the Short-Tails would not surrender or merge their magical talents with their mothers'.

Both are from Kallor's little tyrannical tirade in MoI. The second one is of particular interest. I do recall there being another passage regarding imbuing magic into their skykeeps or some such t hing.