[Spectrum]

Hello.

I have been wondering. We know that there exists a number of warrens and Holds, and that each of these apparently has an entire world inside it.

So warrens are worlds. Does this mean that all worlds are warrens?

The "main" world that the Malazan Empire is in - Wu, or whatever you choose to call it - is it a warren, too? Or is it "the real world", different in nature from the warren worlds?

I myself by far prefer the idea that all worlds are equal in status and that the Malazan world is a warren like any other. But do we have any evidence one way or the other? What do you think?

If this has been covered before, please link me.

[Aptorian]

The only ones I'm sort of I doubt about are Mocra and Ruse.

Mocra is a warren and a conciouness of the warrens, but I don't think it has a physical maniphestation.

Ruse is the warren of the sea and I think that's where the warren presides, it litterally is the oceans of Wu/Burn.

All the others seem to have land, civilizations and history... of some kind.

[Kimloc]

Aptorian;283613 said:

The only ones I'm sort of I doubt about are Mocra and Ruse.

Mocra is a warren and a conciouness of the warrens, but I don't think it has a physical maniphestation.

Ruse is the warren of the sea and I think that's where the warren presides, it litterally is the oceans of Wu/Burn.

All the others seem to have land, civilizations and history... of some kind.

This makes sense but where does Denul fit in the land/civilization/history theory?

[Aptorian]

Okay, add Denul to the list. Denul comes from K'rulls lymphnodes.

[Mentalist]

Denul is a warren composed entirely of stem cells.
i think I made that obvious in the "thinking about warrens" thread

hmmm, may have to dig that up...

[Tiger_sword]

Note though that we have never seen anyone use "wu" for magic (unless you count the spiritual magic i.e. wickan)

It could be that "wu" is simply the warren of burn but we have never come across another warren within someone though it could be along the lines of K'rul.

If that is true (wu = burns warren) the who the hell is burn and why is she so important. I knwo she is helping contain the cg right now but is she elder? I have never heard mention of her before she fell asleep (except for the fact that she must have talked to brood to give him his hammer)

I do hope we find out a bit more about Burn in TTH, could help answer this question

Alternately, "wu" could simply be the core from which all other warrens flow from/to though with other warrens being so complex and mixed its hard to see what (if anything) sets wu apart from the warrens

[Venerus]

Tiger_sword;283657 said:

Note though that we have never seen anyone use "wu" for magic (unless you count the spiritual magic i.e. wickan)

It could be that "wu" is simply the warren of burn but we have never come across another warren within someone though it could be along the lines of K'rul.

If that is true (wu = burns warren) the who the hell is burn and why is she so important. I knwo she is helping contain the cg right now but is she elder? I have never heard mention of her before she fell asleep (except for the fact that she must have talked to brood to give him his hammer)

I do hope we find out a bit more about Burn in TTH, could help answer this question

Alternately, "wu" could simply be the core from which all other warrens flow from/to though with other warrens being so complex and mixed its hard to see what (if anything) sets wu apart from the warrens

Burn is the sleeping goddess of Tennes...from MoI, from WJ's internal monologue:

Quote

Brood's an ascendant—one forgets that, in careless times. His warren is Tennes—the power of the land itself, the earth that is home to the eternal sleeping goddess, Burn. Caladan Brood has the power—there in his arms and in that formidable hammer on his back—to shatter mountains

But anyway, re: the bolded part of your post: we DO know of a warren that exists within someone. The Mhybe's dream now contains the Beast Hold, it would seem (heavily implied in MoI, anyway). And the magic lines:


MoI, Tennes Witch to QB:

Quote

'Why does Burn sleep?'
'She sleeps… to dream.'

and the burial of the Mhybe, protected by death, yadda yadda:

Quote

'This is not a burial,' K'rul said to him. 'The Mhybe now sleeps, and will sleep for ever more. She sleeps, to dream. And within her dream, Murillio, lives an entire world.'
'Like Burn?' Coll asked.
The Elder God smiled in answer.
'Wait a moment!' Murillio snapped. 'Just how many sleeping old women are there?'
'She must be laid to rest,' the Knight of Death pronounced.
Coll stepped forward, settled a hand on Murillio's shoulder. 'Come on, let's make sure she's comfortable down there—furs, blankets…'
Murillio seemed to shiver under Coll's hand. 'After all this?' He wiped at his eyes. 'We just… leave her? Here, in a tomb?'
'Help me with the bedding, my friend,' Coll said.
'There is no need,' the Knight said. 'She will feel nothing.'
'That's not the point,' Coll sighed. He was about to say something more, then he saw that Rath'Fanderay and Rath'Togg had both removed their masks. Pallid, wrinkled faces, eyes closed, streaming with tears. 'What's wrong with them?' he demanded.
'Their gods have finally found each other, Coll. Within the Mhybe's realm, home now to the Beast Thrones. You do not witness sorrow, but joy.'

Anyway, there's heavy implication that "Wu" or whatever is now synonymous with Burn (not clear if it always was). The earth bleeds her blood when it's struck, tectonic activity is attributed to Burn tossing and turning. She seems to fill the role of Gaia... -ish, anyway. And people *do* use Tennes, which is Obelisk/Burn, right? So there you go. People do use the power of this warren -- Tennes.


Final thought (sorry for the monster post...): the planescapes of D&D etc are very similar to the warrens concept that SE employs. In that cosmology, the plane (read: warren) of origin for creatures aspects them/defines them to some degree (ie: all creatures from the plane of fire are fire-themed etc). The exception is the material plane, where everything is "normal" (...) in some sense of the word. The material plane is the only neutral intersection point. Could be that Wu is the material plane equivalent. It would fit to some degree; Light, Dark and Shadow are have obvious correlates, for example.

[D'rek]

Venerus;283660 said:

But anyway, re: the bolded part: we DO know of a warren that exists within someone. The Mhybe's dream now contains the Beast Hold, it would seem (heavily implied in MoI, anyway).

A common mistake in my opnion. The Mhybe's dream-world is now host to the Beast Thrones, but not necessarily the Beast Hold. The beast throne might not even be directly connected with the beast hold.

In any case, while some warrens have worldly manifestations, as far as we've seen the use of said warren for magical purposes is the same inside and out. i.e.: Using KE to cloak yourself is done the same way whether you're in KE or in KG/SD/KL/KT/Tellann/Malazi-world. The only difference might be the accessibility of it. Thus, the Malaziworld may be a worldly warren and we just don't know it for sure yet.

I'm personally 99.9% convinced that it is Tennes, but we have no solid evidence from the books just yet.

[Ammanas]

Maybe Wu is an elder warren, like one of those Tool spoke of, in GoTM--"Three? No, there were many." I have this suspicion that all the warrens had elder counterparts at one time. Maybe they still do, the knowledge was lost and so the warrens go unused. Since all the elder warrens, except SD, have human accessible counterparts, then it's logical that other human accessible warrens have or had elder counterparts.

In the GoTM glossary, Tennes is described as the "path of the land." Derudan uses this warren against Mammot. Maybe Wu is this warren or D'riss, the path of stone.

[Mentalist]

???????

A'Karonys, you are making a semantic mistake and confusing everyone

MoI, mmpb pg 231, Paran going card-hopping for the first time, he approaches the hut of made of bones, sees that he skulls that surround it are T'lann Imass, sees the twin thrones made of bone on a dais of imass skulls.

Quote

Knowledge bloosomed in his mind. He knew the place of this place, knew it deep in his soul. The Hold of the Beasts.... long before the First Throne.... this was the heart of the T'lann Imass power - their spirit world, when they were still flesh and blood, when they still posessed spirits to be worshipped and revered. Long befeore they initiated the ritual of Tellan...and so came to outlast their own pantheon.

the two thrones are part of the Beast Hold. in RG Fener even says so--"The Beast Hold has awakened". and its thrones are in the mhybe-dreamworld, where its power is, along witht he Rhivi Spirits and the memories of the Logros T'lann Imass.

[Venerus]

A said:

A common mistake in my opnion. The Mhybe's dream-world is now host to the Beast Thrones, but not necessarily the Beast Hold. The beast throne might not even be directly connected with the beast hold.

That's wild speculation. Every throne so far has been directly connected to its parent warren.

That the throne could be elsewhere than it's warren, that I grant. But the only cases of that (that we've seen) the movement of the throne has been talked up extensively (Shadow and First come to mind).

Furthermore, Featherwitch, MT, 60-61:

Quote

we stand upon Dolmen. Brocken rock, pitted by shattered kin, its surface seething with life so small it escapes our eyes...we are among the Beasts...The Hold of the Beast, here in this valley that is but a scratch upon Dolmen's hard skin

From her reading, I take "Dolmen" to be the world, and the Hold of the Beast to be in that "scratch upon Dolmen's hard skin" -- ie, the tiny hole in Hood's temple, a mere scratch on the skin of the world.

More from Feather Witch (207):

Quote

'Bone Perch now stands as a throne that none shall occupy, for its shape has become inimical to taming. The throne's back is now hunched, the ribs drawn downward, the shoulder blades steep and narrow. The arms, upon which a ruler's arms would rest, are risen now, each in the visage of a wolf, and in their eyes burns savage life...The Hold of the Beast has found twin rulers.'

Seems pretty clear the thrones ARE directly connected to the Beast Hold.

[Sinisdar Toste]

most of the human counterpart warrens, what are actually the paths of k'ruls blood do not have an actually physical realm seperate from Burns world. mockra, ruse, serc, denul, d'riss, are all contained either within burn or k'rul. tennes is trickier to place, its not listed in the later glossaries, but is clearly path aspected to land, i think it is more connected to the spirits of the land, not in the way of pure spirit magic, but through the land to burns own power, somehow.

rashan, thyr, maenas, hoods path and t'riss are all either descended from elder warrens or a gods warren, and tennes falls in here to cuz it apparently has a few gods claiming it. this gives them an actual physical realm unlike the paths. though if tools remark about there being many elder warrens is true for all the paths, then ruse and serc etc could very well have had their own counterpart world outside of Wu/burn, but somehow i dont think it likely. denaeth rusen is mentioned as being the elder warren of the sea, from mael himself, no less, iirc, which kind of throws a wrench in my theory, but its seems to have either dissapeared or been co-opted into burn.

[Venerus]

Sinisdar Toste;283704 said:

most of the human counterpart warrens, what are actually the paths of k'ruls blood do not have an actually physical realm seperate from Burns world. mockra, ruse, serc, denul, d'riss, are all contained either within burn or k'rul. tennes is trickier to place, its not listed in the later glossaries, but is clearly path aspected to land, i think it is more connected to the spirits of the land, not in the way of pure spirit magic, but through the land to burns own power, somehow.

rashan, thyr, maenas, hoods path and t'riss are all either descended from elder warrens or a gods warren, and tennes falls in here to cuz it apparently has a few gods claiming it. this gives them an actual physical realm unlike the paths. though if tools remark about there being many elder warrens is true for all the paths, then ruse and serc etc could very well have had their own counterpart world outside of Wu/burn, but somehow i dont think it likely. denaeth rusen is mentioned as being the elder warren of the sea, from mael himself, no less, iirc, which kind of throws a wrench in my theory, but its seems to have either dissapeared or been co-opted into burn.

The only thing I'd add is that when Mael/Bugg kills the last Edur in MT, he says "You I'm sending home. To my home" which sounds like it should be Ruse*. Then, in MoI, QB and Paran find the washed-up Edur on a beach, which implies that wherever the Edur ended up, it was on Wu/Burn. So maybe Ruse is just the deep, deep ocean. Which would mean warrens maybe don't have to be separate from Wu. I suppose Karsa is another example of that.



*er, I think? Don't races/gods refer to their warrens as their homes? Hmm.

[Sinisdar Toste]

well fear and trull and other edur in MT either know or realize that they aren't native to wu/burn and talk about going "home" which i assume means KE, and the liosan from HoC, go "home" to KL, or is it KT? w.e

[Tiger_sword]

Venerus;283672 said:

From her reading, I take "Dolmen" to be the world, and the Hold of the Beast to be in that "scratch upon Dolmen's hard skin" -- ie, the tiny hole in Hood's temple, a mere scratch on the skin of the world.

Damn if that isn't the most interesting bit of information that I had forgot (/not noticed!)

So is dolmen just a world personified or is it actually alive? Furthermore, if "wu" could be burns dream (which is by no means certain) then how come it was around before she went to sleep.

I may be confused here (its been a while since i've read MoI which I think this is in) but isn't the cg withtin burns 'dream warren', thats where his little hut is?

[Aptorian]

It is very likely that Burn is a young goddess that ascended to become the "soul of the world" or something like that. Before thaqt there was just a planet with it's natural ecosystem.

[Tiger_sword]

Thats what I've always thought but seams a little too simple for SE!!!

[Aptorian]

True, it all hinges on Raest comment in GotM that Burn was young. Then again, in MoI someone, perhaps the tennes witch, remaks that if Burn wakes and destroys everything she'll just start over... like she's done before.

[Raraku]

I think that Burn the SLEEPING goddess maybe young but her aspect was always the earth or something similar to Tennes and while she was awake she had the same function and power. But having the CG chained to her caused her pain and so she is asleep and thats why Raest thought she was young. Doesnt seem like Raest was a lore master so maybe he didnt know that the formerly awake goddess with the warren of Tennes is now asleep. I think that she s always been around.
Its just a theory feel free to poke holes in it

[D'rek]

Sorry about spawning that confusion with the Beasties. I only rifled through MoI trying to find counter-evidence, didn't think there'd be much to refute me from MT or the other books...

You know, there are a lot of parallels between MD and Burn. Maybe MD is to the Kuralds as Burn is to Malaziworld. Both are believed to have previously been awake/active and are now cloistered/asleep