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How old is Fiddler?

#1 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 02:11 PM

I was editing the Wikia and it says that Fid is about 14 at the time of that scene on top of Mock's Hold at the beginning of GotM. Seems very young. Seems too young when considering Paran's thoughts on recognising the Bridgeburner sigil. I thought they got their name after chasing QB across the desert?! Considering that the re-taking of G'danisban happens sometime after that as well... Just re-read Raraku chase scene (Memories of Ice, Chapter 8, UK MMPB 355 onwards) and it does not seem to me that Fiddler would only be 12 or 13 at that point...

Any idea where the 14 may have come from and if so... Fid fibbing about age or Erikson having a timeline moment?
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#2 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 02:19 PM

It's a timeline problem. You also have a reference in Bonehunters to Whiskeyjack and Fiddler saving dunsparrow from a temple dedicated to Hood when she was a child.

You have the Mocks Hold scence, the story in Raraku and the Temple rescue mission. For it to make sense you need to ignore GotM which is fine, that book is notoriously untrustworthy but then you have to retcon the Raraku trek. Perhaps WJ never trusted Kalam and suspected trickery so they put on a play to make it seem like Fiddler and WJ didn't know each other and that perhaps the entire squad were rookies, when if fact they were anything but. It would be some typical Malazan tactics but it is a lot easier to just go TIMELINE SHENANIGANS!

I remember us trying to expand the timeframe between the 7C rebellion and the Genebackis campaign. So that perhaps a lot more time passed between Raraku and GotM but it doesn't fit with Fiddler or Dunsparrows age.

This post has been edited by Apt Hoc: 24 April 2014 - 02:22 PM

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#3 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 03:37 PM

Well, let's try and work out the best possible timeline patch-up

  • Raraku - Takes place in the year the holy Protector whom QB was working for was killed by Dassem (during an abortive rebellion that originated in Aren). The Raraku story has to be the beginning of the Bridgburners. Whiskeyjack ponders that he has 70 soldiers at his back, from different parts of the army and belonging to squads that had effectively ceased to exist, plus we get far too many references all the way through about Raraku being their birthplace. Whiskeyjack is very much a commander put in charge of a motely crew he does not yet know. Hedge points out to him that Fid's hunches are something worth paying attention to. Fid is described as young and Hedge calls him 'the lad'. Maybe take just the bit between Fid, Hedge and Whiskeyjack as 'fooling the enemy' to accommodate Fid having known Whiskeyjack before joining the army.

  • G'danisban - No date? Taking of G'dansiban is the Bridgeburners fist blood-letting engagement after Raraku

  • Scene Mock's Hold - 1154 Burn's Sleep - Ganoes is twelve and considers Whiskeyjack to be young for a commander. Fid, he considers even younger, only a few years older than himself. That could mean anything 14 to 16,17 or even older if Fid was young looking for his age.



Where would Dunsparrow best fit in? What references do we have to her age? And where in the books do we get those recollections about her youth? Are there any other specific time/age references in later book pertaining to Whiskeyjack or Fiddler that anyone can think of?
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#4 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 03:56 PM

View PostApt Hoc, on 24 April 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

It's a timeline problem. You also have a reference in Bonehunters to Whiskeyjack and Fiddler saving dunsparrow from a temple dedicated to Hood when she was a child.

You have the Mocks Hold scence, the story in Raraku and the Temple rescue mission. For it to make sense you need to ignore GotM which is fine, that book is notoriously untrustworthy but then you have to retcon the Raraku trek. Perhaps WJ never trusted Kalam and suspected trickery so they put on a play to make it seem like Fiddler and WJ didn't know each other and that perhaps the entire squad were rookies, when if fact they were anything but. It would be some typical Malazan tactics but it is a lot easier to just go TIMELINE SHENANIGANS!

I remember us trying to expand the timeframe between the 7C rebellion and the Genebackis campaign. So that perhaps a lot more time passed between Raraku and GotM but it doesn't fit with Fiddler or Dunsparrows age.


Actually WJ Fiddler connection in Raraku is easy to gloss over. WJ asks which ever soldier commented to step forward before he gives Fiddler his name. In that instance a soldier was being dressed down so their personal relationship could not have come forward. The code with the placement of the bodies and the fingers is later mentioned by WJ as being found out by Fiddler which maybe hints at a more personal relationship. When Kalam and WJ are speaking about the herbs that help with dehydration WJ states that he knows as hes been fighting on this continent long enough to know the dangers. This suggests that theyre veterans of the campaign. Kalam then goes on to comment about how young they are and WJ says as young as he is which suggests that they are all of a similar age with maybe Fiddler being a bit younger.

If Dunsparrows around mid twenties and WJ and Fiddler got her out of Hoods temple they must have been in their teens making them around 45 now which fits the timeline a bit. Though of course in BH both Kalam and QB both note how young Fiddler is making them older. So if you put WJ, Kalam etc at around a fit 50 and Fiddler maybe 40 allowing for the comments about him being younger.

As for the gap between Raraku and GOTM in NOK I think Temper mentions the new campaign in Genabackis was already under way or atleast about to begin and we have the three years of Moonspawn so its atleast 4 years between them.

14 is never mentioned and is plucked out of the air. I think hes just mentioned as young.

So say hes 15 when him and WJ free Dunsaprrow 20 when he enlists, 25 after basic training and the 7c campaign, 26 when he meets Paran,28 when he gets to Genabackis. He fights in the north against the Mott Irregulars and other parts of the campaign for maybe 5 years making him 33 plus another 3 trying to undermine Pales walls making him 36 when we see him in GOTM. This allows for Paran to age from 12 in the GOTM prologue to a man in his 20s in Pale.

Theere are a few spanners mainly his comment to Kimloc that hed been fighting Imperial Wars for atleast ten years with a mention of the Empire clashing with Trake and Ryllandaras. I cant recall if he states whether he was actually there but his knowledge seems somewhat personal meaning he may have joined up for the unification wars making him much older.

This is all from memory so forgive me
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#5 User is offline   Wolfdrop 

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 05:55 PM

I always reckoned that he was pretty young, maybe early 30's tops. After the prologue of GOTM making him out to be relatively young, I thought it was strange how from DG onwards he was always mentioned as having grey in his beard. I seem to remember in Bonehunters though that he shaves his beard at one point and a few people comment something along the lines of "I'de forgotten how young you were, that beard makes you look like an old man" afterwards. Doesn't really solve any of the timeline hiccups but I just assumed people thought he was older than he was because of the grey/red beard after that.

This post has been edited by Wolfdrop: 24 April 2014 - 06:39 PM

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#6 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 08:29 PM

View PostNoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 24 April 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

View PostApt Hoc, on 24 April 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

It's a timeline problem. You also have a reference in Bonehunters to Whiskeyjack and Fiddler saving dunsparrow from a temple dedicated to Hood when she was a child.

You have the Mocks Hold scence, the story in Raraku and the Temple rescue mission. For it to make sense you need to ignore GotM which is fine, that book is notoriously untrustworthy but then you have to retcon the Raraku trek. Perhaps WJ never trusted Kalam and suspected trickery so they put on a play to make it seem like Fiddler and WJ didn't know each other and that perhaps the entire squad were rookies, when if fact they were anything but. It would be some typical Malazan tactics but it is a lot easier to just go TIMELINE SHENANIGANS!

I remember us trying to expand the timeframe between the 7C rebellion and the Genebackis campaign. So that perhaps a lot more time passed between Raraku and GotM but it doesn't fit with Fiddler or Dunsparrows age.


Actually WJ Fiddler connection in Raraku is easy to gloss over. WJ asks which ever soldier commented to step forward before he gives Fiddler his name. In that instance a soldier was being dressed down so their personal relationship could not have come forward. The code with the placement of the bodies and the fingers is later mentioned by WJ as being found out by Fiddler which maybe hints at a more personal relationship. When Kalam and WJ are speaking about the herbs that help with dehydration WJ states that he knows as hes been fighting on this continent long enough to know the dangers. This suggests that theyre veterans of the campaign. Kalam then goes on to comment about how young they are and WJ says as young as he is which suggests that they are all of a similar age with maybe Fiddler being a bit younger.

If Dunsparrows around mid twenties and WJ and Fiddler got her out of Hoods temple they must have been in their teens making them around 45 now which fits the timeline a bit. Though of course in BH both Kalam and QB both note how young Fiddler is making them older. So if you put WJ, Kalam etc at around a fit 50 and Fiddler maybe 40 allowing for the comments about him being younger.

As for the gap between Raraku and GOTM in NOK I think Temper mentions the new campaign in Genabackis was already under way or atleast about to begin and we have the three years of Moonspawn so its atleast 4 years between them.

14 is never mentioned and is plucked out of the air. I think hes just mentioned as young.

So say hes 15 when him and WJ free Dunsaprrow 20 when he enlists, 25 after basic training and the 7c campaign, 26 when he meets Paran,28 when he gets to Genabackis. He fights in the north against the Mott Irregulars and other parts of the campaign for maybe 5 years making him 33 plus another 3 trying to undermine Pales walls making him 36 when we see him in GOTM. This allows for Paran to age from 12 in the GOTM prologue to a man in his 20s in Pale.

Theere are a few spanners mainly his comment to Kimloc that hed been fighting Imperial Wars for atleast ten years with a mention of the Empire clashing with Trake and Ryllandaras. I cant recall if he states whether he was actually there but his knowledge seems somewhat personal meaning he may have joined up for the unification wars making him much older.

This is all from memory so forgive me


All of that from memory?! Thanks given!

The Raraku scene was probably written with the idea that they did not yet know each other well. Later on, the journey had of course brought them close, but as you said, one can gloss over that initial scene. Whiskeyjack was definitely a veteran of the war but not necessarily that old, the rest probably had a mixed length of service record.

Can you remember which book contained the memories about Dunsparrow? I am guessing it was in tBH. Will try and dig it out...

I would reduce Fid's age by two or even three years at least in that sequence you gave. 26 is too old for the Mock's Hold scene but an streetsmart kid of 12 could be old enough for the Dunsparrow memory...

The scene with Kimloc must be eight/nine years after Mock's Hold at the least, so ten years plus in imperial service would be realistic.
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#7 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 08:32 PM

View PostWolfdrop, on 24 April 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

I always reckoned that he was pretty young, maybe early 30's tops. After the prologue of GOTM making him out to be relatively young, I thought it was strange how from DG onwards he was always mentioned as having grey in his beard. I seem to remember in Bonehunters though that he shaves his beard at one point and a few people comment something along the lines of "I'de forgotten how young you were, that beard makes you look like an old man" afterwards. Doesn't really solve any of the timeline hiccups but I just assumed people thought he was older than he was because of the grey/red beard after that.


Some men go grey in the beard much earlier than on top, Fid's probably one of those.
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#8 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:03 PM

You can ignore the entire formation of the BBs scene if you want, because it is all told in flashback as WJ telling the story to Rake. WJ could have changed whatever details he wanted, especially leaving out any hints of him knowing his soldiers from earlier (either because he has a reason not to or just because it isn't relevant to telling the story to Rake).

If you allow Fid and WJ to be friends before they were in the army, then you can have Fid knowing Dunsparrow, bouncing her on a knee, and helping WJ get her out of a temple at almost any age before they go to Genebackis. Could be before they joined the army, or could be during some leave time (especially when they were in QT before being shipped off to Genebackis - ie right around the GotM prologue).

IMO, the GotM prologue itself is the biggest issue. No matter how you want to place things in the timeline, if Fiddler is no more than, say, 16 when Ganoes sees him (as Ganoes believes) than the BBs can only have been formed a few years prior - Fiddler as an 8-year old soldier crossing Raraku does not exactly work!

It is mighty hard to imagine the Bridgeburners going from a 70-strong bunch of outcasts to a huge company with a fiercesome reputation enough to be remembered as being "the Emperor's favourites" in only a couple years. Even harder when you consider the last few years before the GotM prologue Kellanved was not even around to notice them doing any such thing.

So, I find it much easier to think that the BBs were around for at least more like a dozen years before the GotM prologue, but that the original 70 suffered very dramatic anti-aging effects (which we already believe to be the case later on anyways), making Fiddler more like 25 at the GotM prologue, but {a} he looks like he's no more than 19, and {b} 10-year old Ganoes is crap at telling 15 and 19-year olds apart.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#9 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 11:12 AM

View PostD, on 24 April 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:

You can ignore the entire formation of the BBs scene if you want, because it is all told in flashback as WJ telling the story to Rake. WJ could have changed whatever details he wanted, especially leaving out any hints of him knowing his soldiers from earlier (either because he has a reason not to or just because it isn't relevant to telling the story to Rake).

If you allow Fid and WJ to be friends before they were in the army, then you can have Fid knowing Dunsparrow, bouncing her on a knee, and helping WJ get her out of a temple at almost any age before they go to Genebackis. Could be before they joined the army, or could be during some leave time (especially when they were in QT before being shipped off to Genebackis - ie right around the GotM prologue).

IMO, the GotM prologue itself is the biggest issue. No matter how you want to place things in the timeline, if Fiddler is no more than, say, 16 when Ganoes sees him (as Ganoes believes) than the BBs can only have been formed a few years prior - Fiddler as an 8-year old soldier crossing Raraku does not exactly work!

It is mighty hard to imagine the Bridgeburners going from a 70-strong bunch of outcasts to a huge company with a fiercesome reputation enough to be remembered as being "the Emperor's favourites" in only a couple years. Even harder when you consider the last few years before the GotM prologue Kellanved was not even around to notice them doing any such thing.

So, I find it much easier to think that the BBs were around for at least more like a dozen years before the GotM prologue, but that the original 70 suffered very dramatic anti-aging effects (which we already believe to be the case later on anyways), making Fiddler more like 25 at the GotM prologue, but {a} he looks like he's no more than 19, and {b} 10-year old Ganoes is crap at telling 15 and 19-year olds apart.


I don't think the Prologue needs to be a problem... Iused to know someone who was 28 who had to show his ID everytime he wanted to buy alcohol - so if Ganoes (who was 12 at the time) thinks Fiddler to be 16-17 the latter could well be in his mid twenties in actual age. That would give us the ten-eleven years between Raraku and GotM Prologue. I totally agree that there had to have been a considerable gap between the two events for the Bridgeburners to have build a reputation.

Given that commanders are often sixty, seventy or even older, then a 'young' commander could mean anything from twenty to fifty I would guess... Whiskeyjack being described as young for his rank doesn't actually pin him down much agewise at all.

I like your idea about them getting Dunsparrow out of Hood's Temple when they were on leave however, Fiddler talks about Whiskeyjack just finishing his 'prenticeship (BH, Chapter 13, UK MMPB p. 640) and that's not really a term used in the army. It would point towards WJ being somewhere between 15 to 20 most likely, making him 40-45 by the time Y'Ghatan comes round. So yes, when Ganoes first meats WJ, that would make him young for someone in his position but it would still leave enough time to fit in everything beforehand. And Fiddler was just that bit younger at every stage...

Based on all the comments... how does the following timeline look? Where does it need tweaking? The constants being that Y'Ghatan happens roughly ten years after the GotM Prologue and about 25 years after the abduction of Dunsparrow from the temple...



*Getting Dunsparrow out of temple - about 25 years before Y'Ghatan - Fiddler 12 / Whiskeyjack 16

*Time period: Joining the army (maybe because of uproar following the abduction from the temple) - WJ building career, duration 4 years (advancement during times of war can be fast) At the end of this period - F 16 / W 20

•Raraku - about ten years before Prologue GotM - F 17 /W 21


•Timeperiod: G'danisban - duration ten years - Bridgeburners fist blood-letting engagement after Raraku and period of building numbers and reputation


•Scene Mock's Hold - 1154 Burn's Sleep - Ganoes is twelve, F 27 (but youthful looking) / W 31

*Y'Ghatan (about 1164 Burn's Sleep)- Dunsparrow about 25, - F 37 / W 41

This post has been edited by Egwene: 25 April 2014 - 11:14 AM

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#10 User is offline   Zerv 

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 09:02 PM

If memory serves there's also a passage in TCG (or perhaps DoD?) where it is stated that Fiddler was present during the Malazan conquest of Strike shortly after having joined the army. I don't have the page number, unfortunately. This does complicate things somewhat, since it would mean that Fiddler would have to be quite a bit older than is suggested in the GotM prologue and the Raraku flashback in MoI (since Strike is a part of Falar I'm assuming that it was conquered before the invasion of Seven Cities began in earnest). Then again, we aren't given any concrete facts regarding his age in either of those scenarios. As D'rek pointed out, Ganoes might just be a bloody terrible judge of age, but it still seems odd that he would judge Fiddler to be just a few years older than 12 if he is in fact 30 or more. Calling it a GotM-ism is probably the simplest answer.
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#11 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 09:28 PM

Fiddler looks younger than he is cuz of Raraku and/or his beauty regimen, but the other reason Ganoes sees him as a few years older than him is because Ganoes -- in this very scene -- is daydreaming about becoming a soldier. Thinking of Fiddler as close to his own age is a way to comfort himself with the idea that it's only a few more years before he too can sign up.
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#12 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 10:19 AM

Looking back to this thread in conjunction with my attempt to work out when Whiskeyjack was in command of which army....

One other thing that I came across is the mention of Dujek as being 'the boy' in Kellanved's old family. I always thought he was much younger than Whiskeyjack... how does that fit in?

My mind is beginning spin just thinking the word 'timeline'!
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#13 User is offline   Hetan 

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 11:49 AM

Dujek was part of the family and - as has been mentioned before - residency in the deadhouse has beneficial effects. Dujek looked around 50 - younger than his 79 years, according to GoTM
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#14 User is offline   Kingfisher 

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 04:04 PM

"To Raraku, the desert that nearly saw me destroyed only to rise once more, mysteriously renewed-a renewal that persists, since for an old man I neither look nor feel old. And so it for all of us Bridgeburners, as if Raraku stole something of our mortality, and replaced it with...with something else."
-p.322, HoC

Just finished rereading House of Chains, only reason I remembered this. There's also a conversation with Gesler later on, that Fid draws parallels with what happened to him and to what Gesler went through.

So it's reasonsble to assume that Fiddler is much older then he appears to be. I can't remember which book it is in, but there's also a scene where Fiddler and Hedge get the first crack at using the Moranth munitions. For a weapon so linked to the Empire, Fiddler and co. have been around for a long time.
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#15 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 07:14 PM

View PostKingfisher, on 22 September 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

"To Raraku, the desert that nearly saw me destroyed only to rise once more, mysteriously renewed-a renewal that persists, since for an old man I neither look nor feel old. And so it for all of us Bridgeburners, as if Raraku stole something of our mortality, and replaced it with...with something else."
-p.322, HoC

Just finished rereading House of Chains, only reason I remembered this. There's also a conversation with Gesler later on, that Fid draws parallels with what happened to him and to what Gesler went through.

So it's reasonsble to assume that Fiddler is much older then he appears to be. I can't remember which book it is in, but there's also a scene where Fiddler and Hedge get the first crack at using the Moranth munitions. For a weapon so linked to the Empire, Fiddler and co. have been around for a long time.


Agreed on the Raraku effect on the Bridgeburners. I get the sense that Fiddler is not crazily old like the century-old mages, though, just unusually spry for, say, a 50-year old or so.

I'm not so sure about the Moranth munitions bit - the Genebackis campaign is pretty "recent" in the Empire history, after all, and in that particular flashback Whiskeyjack has already been busted down to Sergeant, anyways.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#16 User is offline   Felisin Fatter 

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 11:53 AM

Fiddler also has a magical talent (he is a deck reader and can sense magic and other stuff), so he is kind of like a mage. And we know mages age much slower. Tattersail for example, is 200-something, but looks to be in her thirties. That would explain Whyskeyjack looking much older.
And on the Ganoes Paran scene: Fiddler is short + he likely just shaved that day, being back in civilized lands. Might be wearing a new and oversized uniform too. Ganoes is a tall and arrogant boy, who isn't paying much attention to Fiddler.

(I myself am short and have 'young' face. At 30, people who weren't paying much attention would ask me what school I was attending. And I have not been in any magical deserts, nor, alas, do I have access to any warrens (boat repair would come in handy ;) ). )
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