[robmafia]

Hi all,

First time posting here but I've been a lurker for a while. Love the discussions.

Last week I finished my first read through of the series (Crippled God was AWESOME, in spirit the perfect companion piece to Gardens of the Moon and maybe the best book of them all) which has taken me just less than a year. I've still got Stonewielder and Orb Sceptre Throne to read.

Quick question which, now it's all over, I can't quite seem to remember the answer to: given what was revealed in the Crippled God about Shadowthrone's audacious plot throughout the series, can someone remind me WHY he had Cotillion possess Sorry/Apsalar back in Gardens? How did it fit with his grand scheme to free the Crippled God, teach the gods a lesson, and reorder the pantheon? What was the calculation and rationale?

Thanks in advance!

[Kanese S's]

Plans change, and often grow. People change and become concerned about different things.


Though.... it could be argued that Laseen's rule had to be destabilized in order to hone a new elite army fighting a Seven Cities rebellion that could later be used in their plots against the rest of the pantheon.

[tiam]

robmafia, on 13 April 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

Hi all,

First time posting here but I've been a lurker for a while. Love the discussions.

Last week I finished my first read through of the series (Crippled God was AWESOME, in spirit the perfect companion piece to Gardens of the Moon and maybe the best book of them all) which has taken me just less than a year. I've still got Stonewielder and Orb Sceptre Throne to read.

Quick question which, now it's all over, I can't quite seem to remember the answer to: given what was revealed in the Crippled God about Shadowthrone's audacious plot throughout the series, can someone remind me WHY he had Cotillion possess Sorry/Apsalar back in Gardens? How did it fit with his grand scheme to free the Crippled God, teach the gods a lesson, and reorder the pantheon? What was the calculation and rationale?

Thanks in advance!

KS is sort of right but if you ignore the motivations in GOTM it makes more sense. For example they are incredibly vengeful of Laseen in that book and the Empress is killing off all the Old Guard yet in MOI that doesnt seem to be a crucial motivation and Tays actions outside Pale have been changed to stop Nightchill trying to achieve Dragnipur and free Draconus. If you ignore ST game of killing Laseen and remember that ROTCG was written many years ago thus making the Old Guard plot in GOTM more plausible it makes more sense.

[robmafia]

Interesting hypotheses. Thanks for the replies.

I was browsing Gardens the other day, and was struck by how Lorn quickly conceptualises that the slaughter in the coastal region was a mere distraction (i.e. for the unknown perpetrator, Shadowthrone, to do something else - which we know was to possess Sorry).

Considering the sheer scale of ST's plans as revealed in the final book, and that he had been planning this for a long time (during his crawling around in the Azath for decades he had learned what the pantheon was really like - a gang of pathetic super-powered children - and, while he certainly wanted to become a god himself, also saw a need to deal with their biggest ongoing mistake, the Chaining; the fact that he had recruited Tavore, a Talon and a military genius by the age of seven - probably the finest military mind in his Empire - to help him) and at such an astounding level of complexity made me wonder: did he WANT Lorn and the Empress to see through the carnage he had unleashed on the coastal plain? Did he want them to think of it as a distraction? Lorn certainly saw through it very quickly. We don't know when Laseen first realised that her bid to kill Kellanved and Dancer had not only failed, but had been an elaborate con trick - in her conversation with Tay in NoK I got the impression that she knew they weren't dead - but she must have been suspecting by Gardens that they were still out there.

I therefore wonder if ST's actions on the coastal plain was an attempt to make Laseen (and, crucially, any watching gods) think that his ambitions were strictly ... local.

Limited. Driven by vengeance and hatred. He certainly hated Laseen for daring to plot against him - though he paradoxically welcomed it as a route to ascension - but did he construct a 'plot' against Laseen via his massacre on the coastal plain in order to divert attention from what he was really up to?

ST had, after all, hidden the fact that he was Kellanved in order to buy himself the time to secure his place in the pantheon. If it was known who he was earlier, he could have been targeted and taken down given his command of the Malazans, the Imass, and now the realm of Shadow. By Gardens, and the beginning of his great game to free the Crippled God, he would have suspected that eyes would start to focus upon him: far better to let everyone think that you were really just feuding with Laseen.

I think that the possession of Sorry, and placing her with the Bridgeburners, served other purposes: obviously ST got another super-assassin to deploy whenever he wanted; the Bridgeburners were always close to the centre of the action in the Empire, so ST could easily monitor what was going on in the Empire; and (given that in Dust of Dreams or Crippled God QB admits that the BBs were considering launching an insurrection against Laseen and thus the Empress had been right to take them down) keep an eye on the BBs and make sure that they didn't screw things up by cutting Laseen's throat (perhaps Sorry would have cut Whiskeyjack and Kalam's throats if necessary...)

Does any of that sound plausible?

And, come to think of it, why did Sorry stab Paran?

[D'rek]

The part that is "revealed" in TCG, if anything, is two things: 1. Shadowthrone's discussion with Ganoes Paran and Tavore's talon combined to show that Tavore was in some way working in concert with ST, though the nature of that relationship will be forever unwitnessed; and 2. Cotillion speaking with Lostara about becoming more human.

There are certainly numerous ways to interpret ST&Cot's actions in GotM - one character in a later novel even suggests that Cotillion was there to be an ace-in-the-hole when Dujek's army fought the Pannion Domin. Cotillion's conversation with Lostara about becoming more human/humane leads to the interpretation that ST & Cot may really have been plotting revenge against Laseen in GotM, but by the time their initial plan failed they had spent more time amongst humans again and it softened their resolve for that revenge. The scene of Silchas visiting the pocket-memory warren of Coltaine's Fall where the aspects of other gods are present and showing their own cruel, self-centered detachment from mortals, and ST disagreeing with them, also reinforces this.

But that is just one interpretation and there's no right or wrong way to see it.

robmafia, on 13 April 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

And, come to think of it, why did Sorry stab Paran?

Because he was an agent of Lorn and of Oponn, both of whom Cotillion didn't want interfering.

[robmafia]

Thanks, very interesting.

I was also struck by the fact that as the Imperial Warren is the blasted wastes of Kallor-ville, ST had long had first hand knowledge of how incompetent/evil/petty the Elder Gods were - which doubtless reinforced his sense that something needed to be done about their games.

It is of course perfectly possible that at the outset ST was simply motivated by revenge against Laseen (even though in most practical respects he welcomed being able to get away from being mortal), and then, sometime between GoTm and MoI/HoC began to see the bigger picture when the Crippled God's poison started causing problems again - and from there developed his grand scheme.

But I prefer to image ST had it all planned out (in outline and intention, anyway), all along! It kind of makes the thing hang together nicely. After all, the force that seemed to be driving much of the action in GoTM was the plotting of ST, and a sense of a vast but elusive plot that the reader could only catch glimpses of. It was a nice touch that it came full circle in the final book.

At the end of the Crippled God, ST and Cotillion discuss that it 'isn't over' with the Elder Gods either. I doubt SE will go back to that theme, but it would be cool to see. Going back to my first point, the Imperial Warren was an enduring monument to the stupidity of the Elder Gods. Kallor was the worst tyrant imaginable but rather than killing him, they cursed him never to die - i.e. to keep him around forever, so the game could go on forever. Without the games, they have nothing to do. And how many has Kallor killed since? Whiskeyjack among them.

Here's hoping that in his quest to take down civilisation, Karsa Orlong comes face to face with the very worst embodiment of civilisation and the urge to lord it over other people - Kallor. Short meeting I think. He has it coming. It would be a poetic fit.

[gandrin]

Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam, on 13 April 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

robmafia, on 13 April 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

Hi all,

First time posting here but I've been a lurker for a while. Love the discussions.

Last week I finished my first read through of the series (Crippled God was AWESOME, in spirit the perfect companion piece to Gardens of the Moon and maybe the best book of them all) which has taken me just less than a year. I've still got Stonewielder and Orb Sceptre Throne to read.

Quick question which, now it's all over, I can't quite seem to remember the answer to: given what was revealed in the Crippled God about Shadowthrone's audacious plot throughout the series, can someone remind me WHY he had Cotillion possess Sorry/Apsalar back in Gardens? How did it fit with his grand scheme to free the Crippled God, teach the gods a lesson, and reorder the pantheon? What was the calculation and rationale?

Thanks in advance!

KS is sort of right but if you ignore the motivations in GOTM it makes more sense. For example they are incredibly vengeful of Laseen in that book and the Empress is killing off all the Old Guard yet in MOI that doesnt seem to be a crucial motivation and Tays actions outside Pale have been changed to stop Nightchill trying to achieve Dragnipur and free Draconus.

This is a really deep discussion! It's striking that the very first scene of GotM is still unexplained.

I'm not sure this loop was fully closed in the books. Tayschrenn and Sorry just don't seem to fit in with the rest of the series.

Looking back now (after also reading RotCG, where he's so...neutral) the Tayschrenn at Pale does not seem to be the same character at all. Why would he have attacked that mage cadre? How did Hairlock correctly predict all who would be in the cadre (that they were Old Guard needing elimination)? Not sure he could have predicted the cadre if the "real" motivation was simply to kill Nightchill. And very little that Sorry did makes sense. Stabbing Paran. Being so cruel. Being there at all. In DoD or TTH (I think, maybe earlier) somebody mentions that maybe the whole idea was to implant Apsalar in the Bonehunters invasion way down the road...but then Apsalar does NOTHING during the invasion and simply disappears. I don't even know when or how she left. If it weren't for the little dragons I'd never have know she was there at all. It's almost like Lostara took her place in the story.

[Geer]

Perhaps Cotillion needed to possess Apsalar to impart vital skills inherent in Cotillion himself. This would have made Apsalar gifted above other mortals, and a more capable, useful tool for both Cotillion and ST. As we see in later books, Apsalar was required to move widely within and among plot lines, to accomplish tasks which all ended up being intertwined with the freeing of the Crippled God.

[Kanese S's]

robmafia, on 13 April 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

And, come to think of it, why did Sorry stab Paran?

I like the direction you're going... but why did Sorry stab Paran?

Well, as much as ST and Cots might want Laseen to know that it's really them running Shadow, it simply wouldn't do to let her actually catch one of them, now would it? Can't make things too easy. At the time, Paran was in the employ of Adjunct Lorn, who herself was a projection of the Empress' will. Additionally, Paran was a tool of Oponn, rival members of the Pantheon who could mess things up if they got too heavily involved. I assume Sorry killed Paran to keep prying eyes from getting too close. Also because it would frustrate Lorn, and indirectly, Laseen, as well as the twins, which I think would have satisfied ST somewhat.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 13 April 2012 - 09:28 PM

[Kanese S's]

D, on 13 April 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

The part that is "revealed" in TCG, if anything, is two things: 1. Shadowthrone's discussion with Ganoes Paran and Tavore's talon combined to show that Tavore was in some way working in concert with ST, though the nature of that relationship will be forever unwitnessed; and 2. Cotillion speaking with Lostara about becoming more human.

There are certainly numerous ways to interpret ST&Cot's actions in GotM - one character in a later novel even suggests that Cotillion was there to be an ace-in-the-hole when Dujek's army fought the Pannion Domin. Cotillion's conversation with Lostara about becoming more human/humane leads to the interpretation that ST & Cot may really have been plotting revenge against Laseen in GotM, but by the time their initial plan failed they had spent more time amongst humans again and it softened their resolve for that revenge. The scene of Silchas visiting the pocket-memory warren of Coltaine's Fall where the aspects of other gods are present and showing their own cruel, self-centered detachment from mortals, and ST disagreeing with them, also reinforces this.

But that is just one interpretation and there's no right or wrong way to see it.

robmafia, on 13 April 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

And, come to think of it, why did Sorry stab Paran?

Because he was an agent of Lorn and of Oponn, both of whom Cotillion didn't want interfering.

Agreed. I also think that in discussing what exactly was ST and Cots' plan in GOTM, we should keep in mind that it is certainly possible for them to have multiple plans going at once. They could conceivably have already been planning to reorder the pantheon while at the same time also wanting to do something to get back at Laseen.

Finally, while things may not have gone entirely to plan as regards Laseen, and no one who hasn't read RotCG need read beyond this point.... that plan did eventually work, in an odd, indirect way. Laseen is no longer the Empress by the end of the series. She is quite dead, partly due to a chain of events set in motion by Seven Cities being destabilized.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 13 April 2012 - 09:34 PM

[Kanese S's]

robmafia, on 13 April 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

Thanks, very interesting.

I was also struck by the fact that as the Imperial Warren is the blasted wastes of Kallor-ville, ST had long had first hand knowledge of how incompetent/evil/petty the Elder Gods were - which doubtless reinforced his sense that something needed to be done about their games.

It is of course perfectly possible that at the outset ST was simply motivated by revenge against Laseen (even though in most practical respects he welcomed being able to get away from being mortal), and then, sometime between GoTm and MoI/HoC began to see the bigger picture when the Crippled God's poison started causing problems again - and from there developed his grand scheme.

But I prefer to image ST had it all planned out (in outline and intention, anyway), all along! It kind of makes the thing hang together nicely. After all, the force that seemed to be driving much of the action in GoTM was the plotting of ST, and a sense of a vast but elusive plot that the reader could only catch glimpses of. It was a nice touch that it came full circle in the final book.

At the end of the Crippled God, ST and Cotillion discuss that it 'isn't over' with the Elder Gods either. I doubt SE will go back to that theme, but it would be cool to see. Going back to my first point, the Imperial Warren was an enduring monument to the stupidity of the Elder Gods. Kallor was the worst tyrant imaginable but rather than killing him, they cursed him never to die - i.e. to keep him around forever, so the game could go on forever. Without the games, they have nothing to do. And how many has Kallor killed since? Whiskeyjack among them.

Here's hoping that in his quest to take down civilisation, Karsa Orlong comes face to face with the very worst embodiment of civilisation and the urge to lord it over other people - Kallor. Short meeting I think. He has it coming. It would be a poetic fit.

I'm not that sure that ST's beef is with those three specific Elder Gods... I mean, K'rul hadn't been active in centuries at the outset of GOTM, Draconus was pulling a big wagon inside Anomander Rake's sword, and the Sister of Cold Nights was, ironically, working as a mage for the Malazan Empire (and had been when ST was Emperor Kellanved). None of them, except perhaps Nightchill a little bit, is very active in the gods' games at the start of the series. K'rul became active again, but was largely benevolent in his actions.

Also, the Elder Gods were... not quite so Elder at the time. May not have thought things through, just wanting to level at Kallor the worst curse they could think of.

I think ST is actually more heavily aligned against the Elder Gods not involved in the cursing of Kallor, and against the younger gods more heavily involved with the chaining of Kaminsod.

[tiam]

Robmafia- I very much like the idea of the distraction within a distraction in GOTM in an effort to make it look like he was staying local. A very good insight. However you have to think of GOTM as a sort of standalone book in terms of plot and characterization. Ive recently read GOTM for the first time in a while and am almost through on a back to back reread. The tone of many characters is very different to what we see later in the series, including Rake, Tayschrenn etc. Rake is a Malazan hating cruel overlord, to an extent, whereas in MOI he actually tells Brood to welcome the Empire and doesnt seem to have that personal hatred and Tay is very different, almost imcompetent even, in GOTM. You can point to these and say character growth as the series goes on but realistically they all play their parts well for GOTM but as the series goes on they become more and more anomalous.

While the ideas being thrown around are good ones it is possible that Cotillion wanted to assasinate the Empress in revenge for her attempt on his and Kellenveds life or atleast that was the impression SE wanted to give us. Ive just finished the ST Rake confrontation scene and ST claims to Rake that Cotillion had plans for Sorry all the way to the Malazan throne to which Rake replies he would rather face Laseen than a tool of Shadow. There is also the scene (that I missed on my initial reread of only a week and a half ago ) that states when Sorry is near to the Lorn attack of the Darujhistanii party she has a personal upswell of rage against Otateral which may in fact reference the otateral coating of the floor in Mocks Keep in NOK during the ominous battle. Now SE probably only had that in mind when he wrote but expanded his plan as his books unfolded. The reason its never fully explained is because it was an insular plotline for GOTM.

The assassination of the Old Guard also makes sense in relation to ROTCG being finished many years ago as it introduces insurrections on all the Malazan continents, one definitely engineered by Laseen (Genabackis), one seemingly let to happen by Laseen (im still not sure of the tactical advantages of letting 7C rise but ok) and the rise of the Old Guard/ROTCG on Quon Tali. The scene for this is set in GOTM. In fact if ROTCG had been the direct sequel to GOTM (minus the Wickan Plotline) it would have worked and made sense to an extent.

While I am all for thinking SE had a long game I think if we treat GOTM as more standalone in its initial plot, with the ST and Cotillion plot in taking the throne failing, then it makes sense, though ofcourse your welcome to conjecture all you want.

Seen as were all asking questions- What did ST and Cotillion ever do with Chance?

This post has been edited by Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam: 13 April 2012 - 10:34 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

RE: The massacre and the double-fake with sorry and 'getting back' at laseen

just to read between the lines a little bit more here (gotta get my microscope for this one )

say the massacre is a false trail for laseen and lorn to rush down. lorn, following her agent, is eventually sent off to genebackis to find sorry. there, she is unavailable to laseen, and finally killed. during this time, tavore is getting close to the empress, perhaps even carrying her talon already. she's studied kellenved and dancer, she's canny as hell and reveals less than nothing. what lorn and laseen can work out, tavore can too i'd bet. so, whether by ST's direct command or by her own initiative, tavore is perfectly placed to step to the fore when the time comes.

just a thought. who knows how long tavore's been chasing ST and Cotillion's trail?

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 13 April 2012 - 11:40 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam, on 13 April 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

Seen as were all asking questions- What did ST and Cotillion ever do with Chance?

what i came up with, was that they used it to keep oponn 'at bay' so to speak, as a sort of implicit threat, should they act. the one time they do act directly, post-GotM, is at the end of tBH, and ST sniffs em out pretty quick, having Obo send them packing. (Obo, who's some kind of high mage, and should probably have noticed two gods camping out on his roof. ST did. Why? Chance.)

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 13 April 2012 - 11:43 PM

[the broken]

One of the things I loved about the Malazan Books from the beginning was that good plans fail, and no one was in complete control of the situation. If everything that ever happens is a part of Shadowthrone's plan, then that completely destroys the 'don't mess with mortals' theme, because the mortals need gods to do their thinking for them. And if ST was that capable, he would've come up with a less risky plan. If a single thread parted, it would've all been for nothing.

Sorry in GOTM was needed for exactly what ST said she was needed for. Rake messed up that plan, and ST improvised with the fragile assassin he now had access to.


With Mallick whispering in Pormqual's ear, and the Claw compromised, Laseen couldn't stop 7Cs from rising.

She never planned to get rid of the Old Guard, they voluntarily disappeared. Captain Moss makes clear in ROTCG that she left them alone until they raised an army against her.

I always thought that Tavore had no actual contact with ST, and just figured out their plan due to spending a lot of time in archives and becoming 'the foremost scholar of Kellanved and Dancer'. She decided to become a Talon on her own. ST's conversation with Paran in TCG suggests she's just as much a mystery to him as everyone else.

[worry]

I think they probably had contact, and she just was never his pawn. She refused to be, and probably influenced them as much as they did her.

[robmafia]

Definitely feasible that ST initially wanted revenge and when that went wrong he had to just abandon it - knowing that Laseen was so terrible as Empress that she would get her just desserts soon anyway - and moved on to the Kaminsod scheme.

Fully take the point about plans going wrong as the 'mortals are the masters now' (think that's from Gardens or DG, can't remember) who said it or to whom: it always stuck with me as the mantra for the series and CG fully lived up to that. This failure would have been a valuable learning experience for ST...

I think Tavore had been a Talon all along. That's how she had sent a Talon to protect Felisin. ST was somehow in league with her, but didn't fully know her plan - as was indeed obvious from his chat with Ganoes. She was the ultimate shaved knuckle in the hole.

Excellent points on how stabbing Paran might fit inside a 'distraction within a distraction'...

[Kanese S's]

Sinisdar Toste, on 13 April 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam, on 13 April 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

Seen as were all asking questions- What did ST and Cotillion ever do with Chance?

what i came up with, was that they used it to keep oponn 'at bay' so to speak, as a sort of implicit threat, should they act. the one time they do act directly, post-GotM, is at the end of tBH, and ST sniffs em out pretty quick, having Obo send them packing. (Obo, who's some kind of high mage, and should probably have noticed two gods camping out on his roof. ST did. Why? Chance.)

Would definitely fit with ST's habit of accruing power and then doing nothing with it aside from hold it and carry a threat.

[buddhacat]

The Talon were Dancer's, not Kellanved's. It's possible that Cotillion neglected to mention her to Shadowthrone until it became necessary. It also then makes it easy to believe that ST had no insight into her.

[the broken]

Tavore is too young to be one of Dancer's Talons. Ganoes was older, and he was only twelve when Laseen took the throne.


On Drift Avalii, Cotillion is surprised that Hawl is still alive. He has no contact with the Talons any more.

As I understand it, when the Claws drove them underground, the surviving Talons offered their services to the Untan nobility, which was why Laseen had such a hard time rooting out nobleborn commissions. That was also how Tavore and Korbolo had access to them. There's a line somewhere... 'the nobility had reasserted itself with surprising speed', attributing its growing influence to the remnants of the Talons.

Quote

knowing that Laseen was so terrible as Empress that she would get her just desserts soon anyway

Laseen was better than competent. She was extremely unlucky,(all her best commanders and the T'lan Imass abandoned her, and she still held the empire together with none of Kellanved's best tools) and Pormqual was an idiot. And ST wouldn't want his empire destroyed. I think he just decided 'you know what, keep your empire, I have bigger things to worry about'