[robmafia]

Where is your basis for thinking her competent?

Her first two big moves went sour: she failed to kill Daseem, and to kill Kellanved and Dancer. She also failed to get rid of the old guard. Her claw was penetrated and rotted out, she failed to stop the talons (like Tavore) from asserting themselves, she presided over two uprisings (in seven cities and quon tali), was behden to traitors who finally killed her, she failed to get rid of the BBs despite years of trying. Etc.

The Malazan empire is a multinational empire - that requires cunning to hold together (like Habsburg and Byzantine empires). She wasn't clever enough.

And her manoeuvres typically went badly wrong.

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

robmafia, on 17 April 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

Where is your basis for thinking her competent?

Her first two big moves went sour: she failed to kill Daseem, and to kill Kellanved and Dancer. She also failed to get rid of the old guard. Her claw was penetrated and rotted out, she failed to stop the talons (like Tavore) from asserting themselves, she presided over two uprisings (in seven cities and quon tali), was behden to traitors who finally killed her, she failed to get rid of the BBs despite years of trying. Etc.

The Malazan empire is a multinational empire - that requires cunning to hold together (like Habsburg and Byzantine empires). She wasn't clever enough.

And her manoeuvres typically went badly wrong.

I find this really interesting, and it's a point of view I've come to accept after struggling with it for a while. We just assume Laseen must be competent; she's clearly greatly talented, ambitious, cool-headed and capable of inspiring fear. Moreover, for the first few books, she's a chessmaster, always just out of reach; look at how she plays Kalam in DG, and the faked rebellion of Dujek's army. From that scant scattering of information, we just fill in the blanks and assume that she's incredibly clever and a good Empress, but it's a flawed assumption from incomplete data. Good assassin? Very much so. Good at thinking on her feet? Certainly. Ambitious? Yep. Cunning and intelligent? Only on a personal, short-term level; we never see more than that. She might be able to stave off disaster by ruthlessly throwing the Wickans to the dogs or dancing around Kalam/Quick Ben's plan, but she just doesn't have long-term planning in her, and it eventually comes down on her head. Certainly, bad luck also played a major role in her downfall, but it wasn't the main cause. Many of her smarter maneuvers like Dujek's rebellion might not even have been her idea.

This post has been edited by POOPOO MCBUMFACE: 17 April 2012 - 05:45 PM

[worry]

On the other hand, perhaps she was competent idea-wise, but had nobody on her side...whereas Kell and Dancer cultivated a group of highly (and preternaturally, eventually) capable people...who abandoned Laseen. The way she rose to power poisoned her chances from the start, no matter how personally capable she could have been.

[the broken]

robmafia, on 17 April 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

Where is your basis for thinking her competent?

Her first two big moves went sour: she failed to kill Daseem, and to kill Kellanved and Dancer.

True, but it didn't matter. They were taken out of the Equation, so she got to take the throne.

Quote

She also failed to get rid of the old guard

She never tried. They 'drowned' themselves. (Admiral Nok, HOC.)

Quote

Her claw was penetrated and rotted out

By then it was Topper's.

Quote

she failed to stop the talons (like Tavore) from asserting themselves

Aside from Tavore, how did the Talons assert themselves? Most of them were killed, and the others kept their heads down. Korbolo's just killed people in Sha'ik's camp.

Quote

she presided over two uprisings (in seven cities and quon tali)

And both were crushed. She sent Coltaine to Hissar, and if Pormual hadn't kept Admiral Nok locked in Aren Harbour, the rebellion would have been crushed much quicker. Sha'ik took a crossbow bolt through her forehead, and pure bad luck brought Felisin in her place.

Quote

she failed to get rid of the BBs despite years of trying

She didn't try to.


And Mallick had an Elder God's power, he's not an easy target.



Laseen isn't perfect. But she's a pretty good empress, with access to a lot less than Kellanved had.

[Dwolf63]

Hi folks,

I'm new here so I hope you don't mind if I add my two cents.

Most of the theories here are not mutually exclusive. I agree with the folk who say that the first book seems out of synch with the rest. It probably was. Its first incarnations took place years before the others. That being said, my feel for how things evolve after is that Tavore's decision to play a part in everything that follows does indeed take place "after House Paran lost it's only son". The choice to use Tavore as an instrument must have been made after it became apparent that Ganoes was about to become something more.


The events that made Ganoes what he was - the exposure to the blood of the hounds, walking within the sword, his connection to Tattersail, all happened in GotM. Certainly one may argue it was fate, considering the scene in the prologue, but that's beside the point.

So where does this leave the whole Apsalar storyline?

It's been mentioned somewhere that there was a thought that Surly had been of a deposed Napan ruling line. She probably joined the initial Kellanved/Dancer led group to get back into power. She was perfectly happy to play her part as long as she thought that empire was their only goal. But when they started dabbling in the esoteric, she decided she could do a better job of running things.

To Kellanved, who it seems believed in loyalty, it must have felt like he'd been used - something that would grate on his ego. I'm sure Dancer wasn't too happy about it either. They had by then perhaps already begun orchestrating this whole "free the fallen god" movement. It's hard to say for certain if they had begun formulating their alliances already. It's quite possible though that some of the things it seemed Laseen were doing had the potential - inadvertantly - to derail their plans. That was the excuse. I think though the motivation was to send Laseen a big FU. It was a moment of pique, and we've certainly seen that Kellanved is capable of those.


Why does Apsalar kill Paran? The motive is entirely to do with the fact that at that point, Paran appears to be Oponn's tool. It must have appeared that the twins were, for whatever reason, going to mess around with things. Perhaps they had their own reputation for nudges and randomly throwing celestial monkey wrenches into other ascendants works. In fact when taken into the later context of having decended from Sethul Lach and being connected with that whole Errant's nudge thing, I'm sure they probably had majorly pissed off many ascendants just because they could.

As it turned out though, had Apsalar not knifed Paran, it may not have set in motion the later events that culminate in his becoming Master of the Deck.


As for questions of Laseen's competance - or lack thereof.... There are times when in attempting grand strategies and subtle tactics, and moving people around on the chessboard like pawns, that it's easy to forget these pawns have thoughts and feelings, personal motivations that sometimes make them choose to do something extra ordinary and unexpected. Laseen seems to have had a problem anticipating the human element outside of her cool cynical assassin mindset.

This post has been edited by Dwolf63: 09 June 2012 - 01:36 PM

[panic686]

A lot of these ideas are awesome but we can look at it in a very simplified way that also makes tons of sense for the whole series.
One way of reading GotM is that the plan was to assassinate Laseen. Relying on creating a new elite army like the Bonehunters seems to be putting all your eggs into one basket and a flimsy one at that. In all likelihood, it made more sense to remove Laseen, put someone more competent in place, and then use a unified Empire to field an army to go to Kolanse.

This plan failed and they had to go to plan B,C, or D.

[Knowing]

I certainly wish I had been around long enough to read this thread days after it started rather than months, however I'de like to throw my thoughts into the fray.

The title of this thread is based off the initial question of why ST and Cotillion would want to posses another mortal to assasinate Laseen. Personally I find both ST and Cotillion too level-headed to kill someone out of spite. Even if it regards their own death. Rather they hypothetically wanted to assassinate her. This implies a desire to get rid of her in aims of something else. Perhaps to take her out of power to further their own ambitions. If Laseen were out of the picture and a ruler of their choice were in power how would the story have developed? After recently reading TBH I noticed that the Perish Grey Helms stated, after a boarding of their ships, that Tavore had better be in good hands with the Malazan Empire since they would not be enough to handle what was coming. Backed by the Empire Tavore would have certainly sailed with countless more ships and a larger army.

As for Laseen's competence I think we have to further explore why she allowed Mallick Rel into her quarters. Personally I do not find her to be ignorant nor incompetent. That doesn't follow suit with ST nor Cotillion. They would not ally themselves with an assassin and allow them to create an entire division of their government allocated to intelligence and killing headed by a fool, let alone someone they were so close to. No, Laseen is smart as hell and knows what she's doing. Going another step further, what if Laseen was similar to ST and Cot? What if her assassination was similar in stature... to relieve the old command with someone capable?

[worry]

Don't worry about the timing. When we're all dead and gone, aliens will read your post and nod to themselves.

[the broken]

Knowing, on 26 September 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

I certainly wish I had been around long enough to read this thread days after it started rather than months, however I'de like to throw my thoughts into the fray.

The title of this thread is based off the initial question of why ST and Cotillion would want to posses another mortal to assasinate Laseen. Personally I find both ST and Cotillion too level-headed to kill someone out of spite. Even if it regards their own death. Rather they hypothetically wanted to assassinate her. This implies a desire to get rid of her in aims of something else. Perhaps to take her out of power to further their own ambitions. If Laseen were out of the picture and a ruler of their choice were in power how would the story have developed? After recently reading TBH I noticed that the Perish Grey Helms stated, after a boarding of their ships, that Tavore had better be in good hands with the Malazan Empire since they would not be enough to handle what was coming. Backed by the Empire Tavore would have certainly sailed with countless more ships and a larger army.

As for Laseen's competence I think we have to further explore why she allowed Mallick Rel into her quarters. Personally I do not find her to be ignorant nor incompetent. That doesn't follow suit with ST nor Cotillion. They would not ally themselves with an assassin and allow them to create an entire division of their government allocated to intelligence and killing headed by a fool, let alone someone they were so close to. No, Laseen is smart as hell and knows what she's doing. Going another step further, what if Laseen was similar to ST and Cot? What if her assassination was similar in stature... to relieve the old command with someone capable?

Cotillion doesn't kill from spite. But Kellanved had to be restrained at the end of TCG from unleashing the hounds on Itko Kan again, just for fun. (Although, with Apsalar living there now, he might have lived to regret it.)


I think that people really underestimate Mallick. Before he comes to power, he

Spoiler

basically has all of Mael's power at his command. If Laseen tried to kill him, the Black Glove would have to come out of hiding, and the Claw would be damaged even more than it already is. By the time it was done, the empire would be in full civil war, Unta would be a smoking ruin, and that's before the Old Guard rebellion and the Crimson Guard arrived. Killing Mallick is pointless if the empire is destroyed in the attempt, that's why Laseen doesn't just have him killed.

[D'rek]

Steven Erikson said:

In the early scenes in Gardens, Cotillion and Shadowthrone are new to their ascension. They’re still smarting from the ‘assassinations’ and Laseen’s betrayal, especially Cotillion, an assassin beaten at his own game (and his Talons being murdered). Accordingly, he plots his revenge. But all precipitous acts need justification, sooner or later…

Cotillion is not a nice man. He was never a nice man, and he shows that through Sorry’s actions, all of which subvert his desire to bring the Bridgeburners on board. The point here is that, ironically, for Cotillion it takes becoming a god to rediscover his own humanity. Imagine if he’d taken his newfound power and simply extended it to serve his own inhumanity (as expressed in Sorry)? Even Shadowthrone would have balked at that (eventually). Of course, you’re invited to think of these two gods as thoroughly corrupted by their newfound powers: but their journey is actually the very opposite. From tyrannical mortal rulers to gods prepared to surrender everything (except their humanity).

For both gods, plans change, profoundly; and among the gods, they’re not alone in that, either. The key to this transition comes mostly from Cotillion, who through his interaction with mortals who are, in one sense or another, helpless, comes to a realization of all the things he had walked away from as a mortal, all in the quest for absolute power. If you like, Cotillion and Shadowthrone represent the possibility of enlightenment even among the gods: and the light they eventually shine across the entire pantheon proves blinding indeed.

The only consistency they display is one of mutability and fallibility, and the willingness to adapt as circumstances change. This doesn’t make them any less arrogant (well, not Shadowthrone, anyway), and this is expressed by their constant front of being in control of everything, even when they’re not. Cotillion is more honest when speaking with chosen mortals, but when he discusses things with Shadowthrone, well, they have old roles to play, as old friends always have. So much of control, in human society, depends on the front presented, that veneer of confidence and brazen balls to the wall (of course, this front often hides something venal and self-serving, and politicians come to mind [Cameron, anyone?], but in the case of these two gods, they actually move towards humanity rather than away from it, and that’s the gist of their tale). In these novels, not even the gods are immune to change.

At a certain point, ST and Cotillion stretch their ambitions, and maybe, in a way, that’s what Cam and I did, too. As much as the storyline was pretty much in place, we both had to be prepared to alter it whenever something cooler came along. There was always an organic component to this series.

link: http://www.tor.com/b...uestions-part-2

[Ceda Cicero]

Speaking of Shadowthrone's plans (I didn't want to start a new thread for this) I caught a little tidbit on a reread of TtH today, something that may have been glaringly obvious to all of you guys but that I completely missed the first time around.

The bit where Crone visits Baruk in TtH, and he's in contact with a spirit from the Crippled God's home world, there's an interesting conversation concerning Rake, Shadowthrone, and a proposed alliance. Now, I guess the first time I read TtH, I was 50% confused by this scene, and 50% assuming that the alliance in question involved only the arrangement with Hood, Dassem, Dragnipur, etc. at the end of TtH. But on a reread, in the context of what happens in tCG (especially Crone and her ilk's involvement in the final convergence in tCG) it took on a whole new meaning.

I won't quote the whole passage as it's rather long, and most people are familiar with it. (FWIW, it's page 150-152 in the trade paperback.) Basically, my sense is that Baruk learns from Shadowthrone of the plan to free the Crippled God, starts talking to Crone about it, suggests that maybe Rake already has enough on his plate and doesn't need to concern himself with offers and bargains from Shadowthrone, and Crone more or less tells him to worry about Darujhistan and his own ass and let Rake do his thing.

Pretty cool, if you ask me. In rereads since tCG, I'm always on the lookout for any hints of the alliances forming between Shadowthrone, Rake, Hood, Tavore, etc. And really they're all there by the end of TtH, it just takes a lot of inference to see them.