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Warren Tree sorting it all out on paper - SPOILERS

#21 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 07:09 AM

Quote

'No. Well, yes. But… look carefully. It's enclosed in a sphere. A pocket warren, a realm unto itself—'
'Or the entranceway,' she suggested. 'Sealing—


Quote

Seduced by Anomandaris’s charms,’ snapped Eloth. ‘And Olar Ethil’s endless pleadings...
To bring fire to the world of the Imass,’ Cotillion said. ‘For that is her aspect, is it not? Thyr?’


Oh my! completely missed this and this.


So what happens when Sorrit dies, did it effect Serc somehow. (it didnt seem too)
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#22 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 07:43 AM

View Postnacht, on 28 January 2011 - 07:09 AM, said:

So what happens when Sorrit dies, did it effect Serc somehow. (it didnt seem too)

Quote

‘This leaves naught but Osserc,’ Mappo said. ‘And should he fall, the warren of Serc shall possess no ruler. I believe, Icarium, that I am beginning to see a pattern.’
‘Desecration,’ the Jhag said in a whisper, not looking up.
‘The pantheon is being made vulnerable. Fener, drawn into this world, and now Osserc – the very source of his power under assault. How many other gods and goddesses are under siege, I wonder? We have been away from things too long, my friend.’

Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

Si hoc adfixum in obice legere potes, et liberaliter educatus et nimis propinquus ades.
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#23 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 06:26 PM

View PostMTS, on 28 January 2011 - 07:43 AM, said:

View Postnacht, on 28 January 2011 - 07:09 AM, said:

So what happens when Sorrit dies, did it effect Serc somehow. (it didnt seem too)

Quote

'This leaves naught but Osserc,' Mappo said. 'And should he fall, the warren of Serc shall possess no ruler. I believe, Icarium, that I am beginning to see a pattern.'
'Desecration,' the Jhag said in a whisper, not looking up.
'The pantheon is being made vulnerable. Fener, drawn into this world, and now Osserc – the very source of his power under assault. How many other gods and goddesses are under siege, I wonder? We have been away from things too long, my friend.'



Thanks MTS. So from this, can we conclude that the Dragon is the repository of power for a warren and the god channels it. If the dragon dies, a god can still take over. Maybe this is why Osserc woke up in RotCG. And maybe this is what the sundering of Emurlahn was, kill the dragon and the god of shadow.
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#24 User is offline   Blueiron 

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 08:02 AM

View PostSalt-Man Z, on 28 January 2011 - 04:07 AM, said:

In Deadhouse Gates, Hentos Ilm (T'lan Imass bonecaster) says to Kulp:

Hentos Ilm said:

"You are Meanas Rashan, which is the branch of Kurald Emurlahn accessible to mortal humans."



Wait what? I thought Rashan was Dark, not Shadow? What's up with all the "do you remember the dark" crap in HoC then?
QBFTW!
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#25 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 08:54 AM

Can we characterize SE's writing as Stream of Consciousness writing (Ah, that's unfair but sometimes it pisses me off)

Ok, I am going to quote this long sequence on the Warrens in Reaper's gale. Always felt that it is very significant in explaining the warrens but never really understood it. I give my half-baked interpretation. Hop

I think in this situation, Seren Pedac had experienced an AHA! movement. Something clicked in her brain that made her understand how the Warren's work.

Quote

Are any warrens alive? Most would say no. Impossible. They are forces. Aspects. Proclivities manifest as the the predictable - oh, the Great thinkers who are long since dust worried this in fevered need, as benefits the obsessed. But they did not understand.


So warrens are not simply forces or some other aspect of physical laws.

Quote

One warren lies like a web over all the others, and its voice is will necessary to shape magic. They (the great thinkers)* did not seek it. Not for what it was. They though ... chaos , a web where each strand was undifferentiated energy, not yet articulated, not yet given shape by an Elder God's (Krul..)* intent.
*Added by me for the purpose of explanation

So the warrens don't exist within Chaos, might actually be unrelated to Chaos, they actually have a common pattern, which is that they all need to follow the syntax rules specified by Mockra.
The warrens are not physical, they arise from consciousness. Each warren has it's own rules that are specified using Mockra. A user of a warren might understand the structure (sort of like an chemist being able to understand his field by reading chemical equations)

Quote

But K'rul understood. Spilled blood is lost blood, powerless blood in the end. It dies when abandoned. Witness violent death for proof of that. For the warrens to thrive, coursing in their appointed rivers and streams, there must be a living body, a grander form that exists in itself. Not chaos, Not Dark, nor Light. Not heat, Not Cold. No, a conscious aversion to disorder. Negation to and of all else, when all else is dead. For the true face of Death is dissolution, and in dissolution there is chaos until the last mote of energy cease its wilful glow, its persisten abnegation. Do you understand?
.


Chaos, Dark (Kurald Galain), Ligh (Kurald Liosan), Heat (Tellan), Cold (Omtose Phellack) are too simple (maybe they are the "physics" warrens) for the new (Krul's) warrens. The warrens need a grander form (a much more complicated basis). The warrens truly are the anti-thesis of dissolution (which is total death, a complete lack of ordering of any kind). So the warrens are essentially Information (patterns)

Quote

There is another way, then, of seeing this. K'rul realized he could not do this alone. The sacrifice, the opening of his veins and arteries, would mean nothing, would indeed fail. Without living flesh, without organized functionality.
'Ah, the warrens, Seren Pedac, they are a dialogue. Do you see now!"


I guess K'ruls sacrifice would mean nothing unless they were real people organzing themselves, continuing dialogue among themselves. To create order, you need people.

Quote

Disregard the vicious crowd now, the torrent of sound overwhelming the warrens, the users, the guardians, the parasites and the hunters, the complicit gods elder and young. Shut them away, as Carols taught you. To remember rape is to fold details into sensation, and so relive each time its terrible truth. He told you this would become habit, an addiction, until even despair became a welcome taste on your tongue. Understand, then -- as only you can here -- that to take one's own life is the final expression of despair. You saw that. Buruk the Pale. You felt that, at the sea's edge (referring to Seren trying to kill herself), Seren Pedac, K'rul could not act alone in this sacrifice, lest he fill every warren with despair.

'Dialogue. Presupposition, yes , of the plural. One with another. Or succession of others, for this dialogue must be ongoing, indeed, eternal. Do I speak of the Master of the Holds! The Master of the Deck! Perhaps - the face of the other is ever turned away - to all but K'rul himself. This is how it must be. The dialogue, then, is the feeding of power. Power unimaginable, power virtually omnipotent, unassailable ... so long as that other's face remains ... turned away.

From you. From me. From all of us.
'The dialogue, however, can be sensed if not heard -- such is its power. The construction of language, the agreement in principle of meaning and intent, the rules of grammar -- Seren Pedac, what did you think Mockra was! if not a game of grammar? Twisting semantics, turning inference, inviting suggestion, reshaping a mind's internal language to deceive its own senses?

'Who am I['
'Why Seren Pedac, I am Mockra'



So here is the most confusing part. What is SE trying to say.

Maybe that there is a dialogue within our brain. A continuous evaluation of information from various external sources (BTW, this is apparently how Mockra works when confusing people). This dialogue is powerful. If we succumb to despair, it would end and when the whole humanity succumbs to it, there will be complete dissolution, an end of "order". Maybe better reframed as
Keep talking, you will make progress. Don't go nuclear in despair as this will only end everything.

Nacht .. Dazed and Confused and needing help.
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#26 User is offline   ShadowRaven 

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 11:36 AM

Interesting thoughts there nacht, this deserves rep! Anyways, concerning the following:

View Postnacht, on 29 January 2011 - 08:54 AM, said:

So the warrens don't exist within Chaos, might actually be unrelated to Chaos, they actually have a common pattern, which is that they all need to follow the syntax rules specified by Mockra.
The warrens are not physical, they arise from consciousness. Each warren has it's own rules that are specified using Mockra. A user of a warren might understand the structure (sort of like an chemist being able to understand his field by reading chemical equations)



I'm fairly certain that in GotM and MoI chaos is referred as the "material" between the warrens, so it has to be related to them somehow (remember QB sneaking into Shadow). As all life itself and all lifeforms (Elder Gods included to some extent I suppose) carry a seed of chaos, does this mean that since the blood, blood vessels, etc. in K'rul's body are the warrens, K'rul's flesh is chaos? This doesn't necessarily mean that the actual Warren of Chaos is also housed in K'rul's flesh, but it's always been a point I've been a little confused about. Although, it would explain to a greater degree why the warren's became poisoned in MoI: the excessive use, and abuse, of the Warren of Chaos (i.e. his flesh) by the Crippled God and his followers could make K'rul's entire body, including the other warrens, sickly.

Also, if ascendants become gods due to them being worshipped, thus increasing their power and also constricting them in some ways, the same could apply to the warrens. IMO the warrens are physical places, but maybe the physics are shaped by what mages ("worshippers of warrens" in a way) believe them to be, thus Mockra specifies the rules in the way you suggest.
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#27 User is offline   Hetan 

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 03:44 PM

View PostBlueiron, on 29 November 2010 - 04:26 AM, said:

First of all, Thank so much guys! this is a really good start!

now then...

View PostShadowRaven, on 28 November 2010 - 05:06 AM, said:

... Note that light does not originate from K'rul, but is somehow connected to the system none the less. SD and KG could also have existed before K'rul created a body for himself containing them....


IIRC, K'rul made some sort of pact with the dragons, and we don't know what it is yet (hoping for some info in TCG) K'rul didn't just make the Human-accessible warrens, he had something to do with the elder stuff to do. I'm pretty sure he mention to Lady Envy about this, about how she swam in his blood, and I'm pretty sure she can use Elder magic. I kinda like Silencer's way of thinking about it though. K'rul just reorganized the pre-existing warrens, but its still not entirely satisfactory

More specific notes:

Didn't Father Light make Kurald Liosan a distinct place from Kurald Thyrllan? Or am I talking out of my arse?
You missed the Imperial warrenB)
Where did the Refugium come from? Is it just the Beast Hold somehow?
Also, the greatest task, yet to come: tracking down all the fragments of K.Emurlahn:coffee::D (I'm really having fun with these smileys. didn't even realize half of them were there)
~Whirlwind
~Mappo's Sack
~Tremorlor
~"Shadow" ie ST's home base

Where in Hodd's name does Iccy's stuff fit in?
Finally, what exactly is the criteria for being "Elder?" Just being pre-Paths?

I'm working on paper right now, but when I feel more confident, I try to make sense of it in an image. We'll see, eh?


The Imperial warren is seperate from the other warrens in that it was specifically created by K'rul to hold the fall-out from Kallor's decimation of Jacuruku. It's more of a worm-hole than a warren, can be used for travelling through but unlike other warrens it doesn't appear to have an aspect that can be used, at least not that I can recollect?

The Refugium is a pocket warren of Tellann - outside of the ritual - Tellan as it was, not as it is now.

The fragments of Kurald Emurlahn are listed on the wiki, all of those that you have mentioned and a few more - Mappo's sack, The Whirlwind Goddess', Tremorlor, The Tesem Temple, the Nascent, Cloud Forest, The Crippled God's fragment, Drift Avali.

I think you have to think of them as Elder Warrens, then Holds, then human accessible warrens.

With regards to Kurald Thyrllan and Kurald Liosan for me it's easier to think of the first as being the warren and the second as being the realm/people as they are interchangeable. For instance the reference to Stormy,Gesler etc as being annealed in the forge of Thyrllan - and "Ancient fires had forged them. Thyrllan, Tellann, perhaps even the breath and blood of the Eleint." I can't recall (outside of something in RotCG) an instance where Kurald Liosan is used as warren magic? It comforts me to think of that as a RotCGism, coz there were a few of them :w00t:

K'rul's pact with the dragons was for them to give him their aspects so that he could create the human aspected warrens and then to leave this realm - back to SD and not return. He was the catalyst so to speak or translator by which humans could use magic. To create order from chaos.

As for Icarium - he is a god with the power of Omtose Phellack through his Jaghut father - what's wrong with that? Of course he could be a denier :p
"He was not a modest man. Contemplating suicide, he summoned a dragon". (Gothos' Folly)- Gothos
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#28 User is offline   Blueiron 

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 05:47 PM

Thanks Hetan! There are some very usefull insights in your post. For one thing I need to use the wiki more often.


nacht: very clever thinking is going on in your brain. That whole bit always confused me too. That the Warrens might be individuals never made sense to me. In fact I've often wondered if Wither wasn't just trying to puff himself up. He was a wriath right? A Tiste Andii ghost. Maybe he was a powerful mage but the personality of a warren? Just doesn't seem to fit with me.

The dialogue sounded to me as though it was mages who were one side (albeit an unwitting one - perhaps explaining the 'turned away' bit?) and K'rul who was the other. That, somehow, mages, in making use of the warrens were, I don't know, preventing them from clotting or something.
QBFTW!
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#29 User is offline   Blueiron 

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 08:36 PM

Kay, so I'm in the middle of making a map, and a few questions are outstanding:
First: I belive that the wiki may be missing some warrens in its comprehensive list: these are
-the Jaghut world of Death ( as seen by Paran in tBH?)
-the Abyss (as seen in RotCG by certain Warlocks?)
-

Also, some warrens seem to be orphans, ie, lacking a lineage.

-Serc
-Denul
- most of the Elder Racial Warrens, but I'm assuming those come from SD or Chaos?

On the subject of Starvald Demelain, when people say its the First Warren, does that mean it is the progenitor, of just first out?

Thanks once again for all the help, first draft of the map coming soon!
QBFTW!
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#30 User is offline   ShadowRaven 

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 10:49 PM

View PostBlueiron, on 29 January 2011 - 08:36 PM, said:

Kay, so I'm in the middle of making a map, and a few questions are outstanding:
First: I belive that the wiki may be missing some warrens in its comprehensive list: these are
-the Jaghut world of Death ( as seen by Paran in tBH?)
-the Abyss (as seen in RotCG by certain Warlocks?)
-

Also, some warrens seem to be orphans, ie, lacking a lineage.

-Serc
-Denul
- most of the Elder Racial Warrens, but I'm assuming those come from SD or Chaos?

On the subject of Starvald Demelain, when people say its the First Warren, does that mean it is the progenitor, of just first out?

Thanks once again for all the help, first draft of the map coming soon!


Well, Serc probably comes from Thyrlan (Osserc, Serc, etc.), Denul is either from Hood's path or Denaeth Rusen, I'd incline towards the latter as it is said DR is the place where life was first born (plus Mael healing Tehol). If I remember right, the Jaghut deathworld as Paran sees it is just Hood's realm, but merely a part of it (the original part in a sense). The abyss is just a part of the warren of chaos if I remember right.
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