[unassigned]

SPOILER ALERT!

I just completed The Crippled God after having read each novel consecutively and decided to share my thoughts on the series. While I feel that The Malazan Book of the Fallen is some of the best fantasy I have ever had the pleasure to read I still feel slightly let down by the numerous plot and character threads that are left unattended.

So, some thoughts...

Whatever happened to Silverfox and her T'lan Imass?

We never got to see L'oric grow out of his ineffable intransigency. His character was completely abandoned even though much of The Crippled God concerned the Tiste Liosan and by extension concerning those developments...Osserc and his opinions on the matter.

Kallor. Another character seemingly abandoned following Memories of Ice. In truth he was barely touched on and it was only in Toll the Hounds that we began to see the various shades of his character and his conflicting natures which completely redefined his position in the narrative but this was never brought to fruition. Conversely one would expect that Korlat would continue to hunt him especially since his murder of her brother Orfantal.

There was no real resolution concerning Dassem Ultor. No encounter with Hood. No encounter with Logros T'lan Imass.

I never really understood Edgewalker and his relationship with Cotillion. Not much information there.

The same can be said about Olar Ethil if the possibility exists that she is actually Burn and not a simple Bonecaster.

The dynamics of the relationship between Anomander Rake, Silchus Ruin and Andarist and furthermore their relationship with Mother Dark and Draconus has always seemed a bit hazy to me. Erikson was a bit stingy with details here in my opinion but to be honest I feel that a re-read of the series might further clear things up in this regard.

I still don't know why the hell Wither tried to kill Udinass.

Sandalath Drukorlat's breakdown was completely neglected leaving any further possible speculation on that situation and on the situation between herself and Korlat forever lost. I am actually wondering if the story of the Shake truly ever needed to be told...

Did things work out between Spinnock and Salind?

I was never quite clear on the whole Spirit of the Eres'al/T'amber situation and the Eres'al's um...association with Bottle. Not much details. Plot line was pretty much abandoned.

Hmm...I always expected Toc the Elder would show up eventually but he never did. lol

I was waiting a long, long time for Karsa Orlong to revise his "I Want to Kill All Civilisation With My Giant Tantrum" mentality but he never did leaving me to conclude that he finally got his way and everyone is now living in villages and all it took was a giant bloodbath. The only other possible option regarding Karsa Orlong is to conclude that the massive amount of plot dedicated to him running hither and tither was just a giant waste of time...sigh.

The mystery of Kruppe is still somewhat personally infuriating especially when taking into account his large role in Gardens of the Moon and Toll the Hounds which are both distinctly flavoured by his presence. Because lets face it, if his capabilities and intent are not clearly defined how can we judge the depth of his morality especially since he seems preternaturally aware?

The addition of Dunsparrow was a completely pointless exercise considering that Erikson never followed through with it which also leaves her association with Leoman as a permanent taint upon Whiskeyjack's character considering that Whiskeyjack only died because Hood had a bone(ha ha) to pick with him. The matter of recompense was dropped and the Queen of Dreams interference in that situation was baffling.

No resolution between Tavore and Blistig. Really? Really!?!?

Errastas pushed to the sidelines with no resolution.

Ganoes Paran was sorely neglected for many volumes in my opinion. Felt that an encounter between him and Errastas would have been far more interesting instead of the tie off via Oponn.

Laseen and Topper bowing out with no explanation but that's just a minor niggle compared to Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom not getting what was coming to them. OK we all got the hinted possibility at the end of the book but not getting to witness it was a tough pill to swallow especially after all this time. In conjunction with all of this Tayschrenn's motivations never really sat well with me. Just seemed like an easy way to push him to the sidelines.

Crokus. The only character in this series that I felt was truly, truly terrible. Things would have been far better off without him and by extension Apsalar involved with any other character would have been so much better. But it just had to be him didn't it. sigh! (What kind of name is Cutter anyway? But I suppose it so very suits him but not in any regard to his apparent skill with blades ;D)

I could have done without much of the poetry proceeding each chapter. I never really took much away from the majority of his poems as many seemed out of context and too vague. Although I don't count myself as qualified to judge poetry I always felt that quotations of various characters and snippets of information about the history of the series was far more interesting and beneficial.

So much in The Malazan Book of the Fallen is left unexplained, unsaid and unfinished. Part of this is just Erikson's style of writing and for some scenarios this works well but I think that he left much of the story slip away from him.

I'm probably missing something else here but those are pretty much my main annoyances with the series. Even if I feel that the tone of the series wasn't consistent all the way through (the opening volumes definitely seemed darker and more edgy than the conclusive tomes to me). And even though I feel Erikson was at times too heavy with metaphor and symbolism, too preachy or just outright miserly with information. And although plots and characters got left behind and everything seemed to be spinning in a thousand directions, the series seeming to exhaust itself near the end...I still feel that this is some of the best fantasy out there and that Erikson is a phenomenal writer.

This is just my opinion regarding some aspects of the series and I hope it doesn't offend anyone. In fact I may be off about some points and would welcome any correction offered. Interested in hearing other peoples views about these points and any others in this series.

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

Agreed with a lot of your points. However, there's more to come on some of them that you might not be aware of:

Whatever happened to Silverfox and her T'lan Imass?
Assail, going to be dealt with (presumably) in ICE's titular book.

The same can be said about Olar Ethil if the possibility exists that she is actually Burn and not a simple Bonecaster.
I just went with her being fucking crazy.

The dynamics of the relationship between Anomander Rake, Silchus Ruin and Andarist and furthermore their relationship with Mother Dark and Draconus has always seemed a bit hazy to me. Erikson was a bit stingy with details here in my opinion but to be honest I feel that a re-read of the series might further clear things up in this regard.
Erikson's currently writing a prequel trilogy set in Kharkanas. It pretty much has to deal with exactly this.

I was never quite clear on the whole Spirit of the Eres'al/T'amber situation and the Eres'al's um...association with Bottle. Not much details. Plot line was pretty much abandoned.
Erikson says it's not finished. What that means is anyone's guess, given that he also said "no more resurrections" after Midnight Tides.

I was waiting a long, long time for Karsa Orlong to revise his "I Want to Kill All Civilisation With My Giant Tantrum" mentality but he never did leaving me to conclude that he finally got his way and everyone is now living in villages and all it took was a giant bloodbath. The only other possible option regarding Karsa Orlong is to conclude that the massive amount of plot dedicated to him running hither and tither was just a giant waste of time...sigh.
Erikson's writing a Toblakai trilogy after he finishes the Kharkanas one.

The mystery of Kruppe is still somewhat personally infuriating especially when taking into account his large role in Gardens of the Moon and Toll the Hounds which are both distinctly flavoured by his presence. Because lets face it, if his capabilities and intent are not clearly defined how can we judge the depth of his morality especially since he seems preternaturally aware?
ICE has a Darujhistan novel coming out in December. Not sure how much more we'll really see of Kruppe's capabilities, though.

The addition of Dunsparrow was a completely pointless exercise considering that Erikson never followed through with it which also leaves her association with Leoman as a permanent taint upon Whiskeyjack's character considering that Whiskeyjack only died because Hood had a bone(ha ha) to pick with him. The matter of recompense was dropped and the Queen of Dreams interference in that situation was baffling.
I haven't read any of ICE's books, but I'm 90% sure he's dealing with the Leoman/Dunsparrow/QoD arc.

[HoosierDaddy]

I recommend reading ICE's novels for some helpful conclusions to quite a few of these. I think even more will be touched on by the Jacuruku and Assail novels yet to be published by him.

You must remember that Wu is a shared world between SE and ICE and whether you like it or not they leave tons of things open for each other to share and continue.

[worry]

Since this is your first post, I'll assume you are new here. This board is a good resource for a lot of your questions, but also for SE's plans. If you didn't know yet, TCG represents the finale of the The Malazan Book of the Fallen, not the Malazan world. There are ICE's (Ian Cameron Esslemont) books, past, present, and future, and there are prequel and sequel trilogies that SE will handle. And that's just what is announced. I wouldn't be surprised if either author continued with one-off books or more ambitious stuff beyond what's already planned.

As far as the more idiosyncratic stuff, chalk it down to personal preference. And of course feel free to go into the individual book forums and argue your face off.

[D'rek]

 unassigned, on 25 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

Whatever happened to Silverfox and her T'lan Imass?

See the Esslemont Assail book (forthcoming)

 unassigned, on 25 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

We never got to see L'oric grow out of his ineffable intransigency. His character was completely abandoned even though much of The Crippled God concerned the Tiste Liosan and by extension concerning those developments...Osserc and his opinions on the matter.

L'oric's an ass, why would he change? Okay so Scillara asked Greyfrog to try and teach him some humility... you expected that to happen overnight and L'oric to show up again in TCG with a completely different personality?

 unassigned, on 25 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

Kallor. Another character seemingly abandoned following Memories of Ice. In truth he was barely touched on and it was only in Toll the Hounds that we began to see the various shades of his character and his conflicting natures which completely redefined his position in the narrative but this was never brought to fruition. Conversely one would expect that Korlat would continue to hunt him especially since his murder of her brother Orfantal.

You may have only begun to see the shades of him when you got his PoV scenes in TtH, but Kallor himself hasn't changed much in 100000 years so why do you expect some sort of closure on his story now? Spinnock successfully kept him out of Darujhistan in TtH, so Kallor couldn't partake of that convergence and was effectively removed from the CG-related plot then.

 unassigned, on 25 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

There was no real resolution concerning Dassem Ultor. No encounter with Hood. No encounter with Logros T'lan Imass.

Did you even read TtH?

 unassigned, on 25 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

I never really understood Edgewalker and his relationship with Cotillion. Not much information there.

The same can be said about Olar Ethil if the possibility exists that she is actually Burn and not a simple Bonecaster.

Not every litlte mystery of the world can be doled out for you a spoon without bastardizing the books' sense of intrigue and making them three times as long. Don't ask for what you don't really want.

 unassigned, on 25 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

The dynamics of the relationship between Anomander Rake, Silchus Ruin and Andarist and furthermore their relationship with Mother Dark and Draconus has always seemed a bit hazy to me. Erikson was a bit stingy with details here in my opinion but to be honest I feel that a re-read of the series might further clear things up in this regard.

Yes it would. Also, see The Forge of Darkness (forthcoming) (maybe - no guarantee those characters are even in it but odds are it will add more to their story.)

 unassigned, on 25 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

I still don't know why the hell Wither tried to kill Udinass.

See every aspect of Wither established in MT - he is supremely loyal to Silchas Ruin, and Silchas told him to.

 unassigned, on 25 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

Sandalath Drukorlat's breakdown was completely neglected leaving any further possible speculation on that situation and on the situation between herself and Korlat forever lost. I am actually wondering if the story of the Shake truly ever needed to be told...

The story of the Bridgeburners didn't really need to be told... it's not like any of the BBs in MoI had much impact in TCG. You could apply that argument to a ton of book parts. Everyone likes different stories, but they are all just stories. Anyways, Sandalath's breakdown was not neglected by the other characters and if you (re-)read between the lines it is very revealing indeed.

 unassigned, on 25 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

Did things work out between Spinnock and Salind?

No.

 unassigned, on 25 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

I was never quite clear on the whole Spirit of the Eres'al/T'amber situation and the Eres'al's um...association with Bottle. Not much details. Plot line was pretty much abandoned.

See RG, wherein Bottle states that she hasn't been with him since they left 7C. It was only relevant to HoC and tBH.

 unassigned, on 25 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

Hmm...I always expected Toc the Elder would show up eventually but he never did. lol

See the Esslemont books.

 unassigned, on 25 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

I was waiting a long, long time for Karsa Orlong to revise his "I Want to Kill All Civilisation With My Giant Tantrum" mentality but he never did leaving me to conclude that he finally got his way and everyone is now living in villages and all it took was a giant bloodbath. The only other possible option regarding Karsa Orlong is to conclude that the massive amount of plot dedicated to him running hither and tither was just a giant waste of time...sigh.

See Erikson's Toblakai trilogy (forthcoming)

 unassigned, on 25 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

The mystery of Kruppe is still somewhat personally infuriating especially when taking into account his large role in Gardens of the Moon and Toll the Hounds which are both distinctly flavoured by his presence. Because lets face it, if his capabilities and intent are not clearly defined how can we judge the depth of his morality especially since he seems preternaturally aware?

See an interview with Erikson wherein the author states that Kruppe is a mystery even unto SE. That being said, all of Kruppe's feats are pretty easily explained by him being a half-decent mage of Mockra/Meanas with a talent for dreams, a Deck practitioner and that one time was protected by K'rul.

 unassigned, on 25 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

The addition of Dunsparrow was a completely pointless exercise considering that Erikson never followed through with it which also leaves her association with Leoman as a permanent taint upon Whiskeyjack's character considering that Whiskeyjack only died because Hood had a bone(ha ha) to pick with him. The matter of recompense was dropped and the Queen of Dreams interference in that situation was baffling.

Dunsparrow exerted on Leoman an influence counterpoint to Corabb, wedging Corabb away from his worship of Leoman and opening his eyes to the travesties comitted by the whirlwind, blah blah blah character development, blah blah blah and I have to go but you're wrong about everything else you said too

[amphibian]

 D, on 25 September 2011 - 11:44 PM, said:

L'oric's an ass, why would he change? Okay so Scillara asked Greyfrog to try and teach him some humility... you expected that to happen overnight and L'oric to show up again in TCG with a completely different personality?

We had Harlo show up basically overnight...

I was very much confused why L'oric did not show up in the Liosan storyline too. He was the former public face/protector of that warren and the others never mentioned him at all. I think the character must have been a D&D one that went off wandering onto his own adventures, rather than a key part of the Liosan storyline from the beginning - which makes the protector thing a releasing of his story-binds rather than an insight into his past.

[Sinisdar Toste]

 amphibian, on 25 September 2011 - 11:57 PM, said:

 D, on 25 September 2011 - 11:44 PM, said:

L'oric's an ass, why would he change? Okay so Scillara asked Greyfrog to try and teach him some humility... you expected that to happen overnight and L'oric to show up again in TCG with a completely different personality?

We had Harlo show up basically overnight...

I was very much confused why L'oric did not show up in the Liosan storyline too. He was the former public face/protector of that warren and the others never mentioned him at all. I think the character must have been a D&D one that went off wandering onto his own adventures, rather than a key part of the Liosan storyline from the beginning - which makes the protector thing a releasing of his story-binds rather than an insight into his past.

L'oric wasn't in tCG because the Liosan from tCG were a splinter group led by a tyrant who styled himself a saviour.

the liosan aren't monolithic. see SW.

[Sinisdar Toste]

 unassigned, on 25 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

I never really understood Edgewalker and his relationship with Cotillion. Not much information there.

i always thought this was pretty simple really. edgewalker once tried to rule Emurlahn. he failed and is now bound in servitude. he could be an elder god, or just an elder being. he's to old and weathered to tell what race he was. i guess he likes cotillion for the same reasons everyone likes cotillion.

I still don't know why the hell Wither tried to kill Udinass.

as mentioned above, wither was loyal to silchas, and silchas thought that udinaas might try to stop him from killing kettle. he had clip to take care of fear and seren, and the wraith for udinaas.

No resolution between Tavore and Blistig. Really? Really!?!?

what do you mean no resolution? what the hell was that entire confrontation they had?

i've replied in bold, because it's easier on the eyes than underlining everything. a lot of your concerns and questions can be answered by reading ICE's works, or will be addressed in forthcoming novels.

[tiam]

Theres alot of points made in the original post that could be answered by a cursory glance round the site. Also if you havnt read ICEs book yet id do that fairly soon as theres another on coming out. They flesh out the series a bit more. The only plotline thats resolved in TCG is the fate of TCG. Anyone alive after that is fair game to be in later books either the trilogies or ICEs five book arc.

ICE work include Night of Knives, and deals with the night of Kellenveds assasinsation, Retun of the Crimson Guard deals with, shockingly, the return of the CGRD, and Stonewielder deals 9ish) with Greymane and the continent of Korel. After youve read these you will have a fuller understanding of the series but again the picture is incomplete because both authors are still writing and also because they chose to leave certain threads unresolved.

That being said some of your questions are answered in the main series arc. For example there was no confrontation between Dassem and Hood yet if youve read TTH you know why Dassem came so close yet couldnt fulfil his mission. While that doesnt effectively end the arc it does provide a level of resolution. Same with Kallor, there is another Darujhistan novel coming up that will answer what Kallor did next to some extent. Be patient

As for the poetry at the beginning of each chapter sometimes they provide excerpts from historians accounts. Other times the authors themselves are referenced later such as Felisins 'Call to Shadow'. Admittedly I rarely read the poetry because im pretty dense in that regard though it does provide a good thematic accounts of certain struggles.

This post has been edited by Orb Sceptre Boat: 27 September 2011 - 04:30 PM

[Drae]

Personally I think the "unfinished" nature of many of the plot lines are a welcome part of SE's style.

Part of what draws me to MBotF is the truly EPIC scale of the storey. It's a freaking huge tale. SE really focus' on the characters PoV in his writing. Naturally many characters will have "un-finished" stories because we only see their actions through the main characters eyes.

I think this lends to really emphasizing that each character has their own storey. His style makes it very believable that each character has their own trajectory, we just only happen to see it when it intersects with a major characters storey line.

I'm just talking in circles now, but basically the "unfinished" plot lines; as a function of SE's PoV heavy style, add to the scale, complexity, realism, and immersion that I love about this series. Many of these characters/stories are so strong they rightly deserve their own tale.

I wouldn't have it any other way; we really should be careful what we wish for; as the mystery surrounding the storey is one of it's greatest attractions.

[worry]

I dunno, I get the feeling that the OP honestly didn't know that there was more than just the 10 MBOTF books. They showed no recognition that ICE and his books even exist, for one, and even more clearly show no knowledge of the upcoming novels SE will be writing. So hopefully returning to this thread will offer a cornucopia of pleasant surprises.

[unassigned]

 worrywort, on 27 September 2011 - 10:14 PM, said:

I dunno, I get the feeling that the OP honestly didn't know that there was more than just the 10 MBOTF books. They showed no recognition that ICE and his books even exist, for one, and even more clearly show no knowledge of the upcoming novels SE will be writing. So hopefully returning to this thread will offer a cornucopia of pleasant surprises.

I was under the false impression that ICE's Malazan world was in parallel to Erikson's. Didn't realise that they shared the same story and timeline. I don't think I want to delve into ICE's installments for two reasons. 1) I've perused the plot summaries for his installments but the subject matter isn't enough to peek my interest and -2) Having two authors for a singular world just seems to me like it would compromise artistic vision and muddle things because of differing writing styles . Perhaps that is an unfair assessment because I haven't even given ICE a chance but if Erikson was the sole author I would probably be more enthused.

I was also not aware that The Forge of Darkness was in the works. Excited to hear about this as it just might make the whole Tiste Andii back story that much clearer. Not too excited about the Toblakai Trilogy however as Karsa never much interested me. Will of course pick it up aswell though.

Anyway, thanks for all the responses. Shed some light on some things, however I'm going to be a little obstinate and hold to some of my points.

This post has been edited by unassigned: 28 September 2011 - 08:00 AM

[tiam]

 unassigned, on 28 September 2011 - 07:58 AM, said:

 worrywort, on 27 September 2011 - 10:14 PM, said:

I dunno, I get the feeling that the OP honestly didn't know that there was more than just the 10 MBOTF books. They showed no recognition that ICE and his books even exist, for one, and even more clearly show no knowledge of the upcoming novels SE will be writing. So hopefully returning to this thread will offer a cornucopia of pleasant surprises.

I was under the false impression that ICE's Malazan world was in parallel to Erikson's. Didn't realise that they shared the same story and timeline. I don't think I want to delve into ICE's installments for two reasons. 1) I've perused the plot summaries for his installments but the subject matter isn't enough to peek my interest and -2) Having two authors for a singular world just seems to me like it would compromise artistic vision and muddle things because of differing writing styles . Perhaps that is an unfair assessment because I haven't even given ICE a chance but if Erikson was the sole author I would probably be more enthused.

I was also not aware that The Forge of Darkness was in the works. Excited to hear about this as it just might make the whole Tiste Andii back story that much clearer. Not too excited about the Toblakai Trilogy however as Karsa never much interested me. Will of course pick it up aswell though.

Anyway, thanks for all the responses. Shed some light on some things, however I'm going to be a little obstinate and hold to some of my points.

To criticise artistic vision before even reading the books is harsh as you rightly point out. ICE and SE share the same universe but never the same story. The new one thats about to be released is the only one that can be considered a direct crossover. Also subject matter for ICE includes:night of Kellenveds assasination, which to me is interesting though you may feel different. Also ROTCG, even if the Guard itself does not interest you contains information on many different things and really fleshes out Quon Tali aswell as answering some of the questions left by TBH ending. SW concerns the Stormwall and the continent was little described before this book. ICE provides a continuation of storylines within the Malazan empire which undergoes radical changes after the events of TBH, whereas SE concentrated on the overall arc of the CG.

What im saying is that they are essential malaz reading. While you may not like ICE style particularly in NOK and ROTCG he does improve in SW and all three are well worth a read. Also the Toblakai trilogy, although you show little interest in it, will likely follow on from the events in Orb Sceptre Throne, thus making it crucial to your understanding of the books.

Seriously give ICE a try, theres a few naysayers on this site you dont like his style of writing but IMO the storyline and plot is very good

This post has been edited by Orb Sceptre Boat: 28 September 2011 - 07:49 PM

[worry]

Here's the thing. Night of Knives is like 200 pages. Give it a whirl and if you don't like it, c'est la vie.

[Kanese S's]

 unassigned, on 28 September 2011 - 07:58 AM, said:

 worrywort, on 27 September 2011 - 10:14 PM, said:

I dunno, I get the feeling that the OP honestly didn't know that there was more than just the 10 MBOTF books. They showed no recognition that ICE and his books even exist, for one, and even more clearly show no knowledge of the upcoming novels SE will be writing. So hopefully returning to this thread will offer a cornucopia of pleasant surprises.

I was under the false impression that ICE's Malazan world was in parallel to Erikson's. Didn't realise that they shared the same story and timeline. I don't think I want to delve into ICE's installments for two reasons. 1) I've perused the plot summaries for his installments but the subject matter isn't enough to peek my interest and -2) Having two authors for a singular world just seems to me like it would compromise artistic vision and muddle things because of differing writing styles . Perhaps that is an unfair assessment because I haven't even given ICE a chance but if Erikson was the sole author I would probably be more enthused.

I was also not aware that The Forge of Darkness was in the works. Excited to hear about this as it just might make the whole Tiste Andii back story that much clearer. Not too excited about the Toblakai Trilogy however as Karsa never much interested me. Will of course pick it up aswell though.

Anyway, thanks for all the responses. Shed some light on some things, however I'm going to be a little obstinate and hold to some of my points.

You're right. Deciding not to read the ICE books without even really a glimpse of them IS unfair. Both to the authors and to yourself as a reader.

They share the same world and timeline, but focus on different characters and stories within it. Each covers ground that the other doesn't. At some points, characters go from one author's area of concentration to the other's.

Both have written about the characters of Ammanas and Cotillion, but one writes primarily about them after their ascension (so far) while the other covered the night of their ascension itself. Dassem Ultor has been a character used by both authors, but each writes about him at a different point in the timeline.

While reading the ICE books isn't absolutely necessary to read MBotF, and reading the SE books isn't strictly required for reading NotME, the two series greatly compliment and enhance each other.

There are those who prefer one author's style or the other's, but I love both. RotCG especially I thought was quite awesome in how Esslemont handled Laseen as a character.