[Ammanas]

Rereading the scene when Fiddler plays his game: He tosses Kalam the Herald of Death and Obelisk cards and asks "How does Kalam get from Herald Death to Obelisk? Let's see. Ah, King of HH Shadow.

After the game , T'Amber states, "Not the Herald but an inactive version. A detail, I believe, is crucial." I assume her comment simply foreshadows Kalam surviving. In the glossary, Obelisk is under the Unaligned with Burn's name next to it.

So then in RG, QB asks Cot about Kalam and Cot thinks, "be glad, I don't tell you ST's real reason for saving Kalam."

So it seems obvious that ST has spun another scheme weaving Kalam and the Obelisk/Burn together. Or maybe Fiddler is wrong. That doesn't feel right though. SE has been consistent with foreshadowing and the whole purpose of the game seems to foreshadow the rest of BH and RG.

Thoughts or clues or criticisms?

[D'rek]

Well I don't think Obelisk and Burn are actually the same. To me, Obelisk is one of those unaligned cards that represents an obscure ideal or philosophy, just like Throne, Sceptre, Crown, Orb and Chain. After all, we know that there were previous equivalents of Obelisk going all the way back to Menhir in the time of the Imass. Thus in this case I think Obelisk represents the Azath-House that ST takes Kalam too. Like Burn, the Azath are a powerful constant intrinsic to the world and quite possibly aspected in same way to the world itself. And both are a passive power, not really discussing their intentions or showing much sign of sentience.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

And Fid, of course, knew what would happen to Kalam...

Perhaps Obelisk is a subsidiary of burn. Could even be Caladan Brood, him having the hammer and h'all.

[Ammanas]

That sounds like a credible interpretation. Sadly, it doesn't shed any clues on ST's schemes. If Kalam doesn't reappear till DoD, I'll be annoyed. TTH as a title sounds very HHS oriented and at ST is in the prologue at least.
Is Fiddler's affinity for these games regarded in the same vein as Blend's talent--just "a natural, in the bones" ability?

Be curious to have Paran watch or sit in on the next game.

[Ammanas]

[quote name='Ain't_It_Just_;279021]And Fid' date=' of course, knew what would happen to Kalam...QUOTE']

Where is it revealed that he knew?

[D'rek]

He says partway through the game that 'now he understands whats what' and that 'He'll add the name to the song to come', implying he knows what'll happen. I'm not too sure that he knew ST would save Kalam, though as would he really add the name knowing Kalam wasn't dead? I can see that he would if he knew kalam would be stuck in there for a long time...

As for ST's diabolical plan involving kalam, while I'm sure there is one, it doesn't really matter. Even if there was no plan, ST would have saved him as it can't hurt to keep an able dude like Kalam in your employ.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

james9700;279022 said:

That sounds like a credible interpretation. Sadly, it doesn't shed any clues on ST's schemes. If Kalam doesn't reappear till DoD, I'll be annoyed. TTH as a title sounds very HHS oriented and at ST is in the prologue at least.
Is Fiddler's affinity for these games regarded in the same vein as Blend's talent--just "a natural, in the bones" ability?

Be curious to have Paran watch or sit in on the next game.

Why thank you.

[Mentalist]

I'm totally expecting to see Kalam in RotCG

Ofc, i'm one of the people who doesn't buy into "ST is gathering an army os assassins and is keeping them in the Azath cold storage" theory...

[Sinisdar Toste]

if obelisk represents burn, then its a reference to kalam being asleep, but if it's not then it could very well be a reference to the azath, though that could also be what the inactive herald of HHD refers to.

i also expect kalam to be in RotCG, though in what faculty i have no idea. will ST even intervene in the CGuards plans for the empire? he certainly has no love for laseen.

[VampireGoat]

Im partly hoping to see kalam in TTH, assasins stored in azath houses is something that started in darujhistan after all back in gotm with rallick and vorcan. If there there is any link between that them then theres hope.

Besides if kalam were to waken in the azath and then do a bit of good old fashion azath wondering, not knowing where everyone is he could easily find himself heading to the daru azath with little more then a few idle thoughts about friends he has there.

[Venerus]

Obelisk may be how Burn interacts with the world. I mean, the CG's assault on the warrens had no effect on 7c because Obelisk wasn't/isn't active there.

No, still doesn't help figure out what ST is up to. *shrug*.

[Sinisdar Toste]

to be honest, i dont think anything can help us out on that front

[Abyss]

Two thoughts:

1. Obelisk, in the Deck and as a figurative rock, has thru the books variously referred to Burn, Caladan Brood, Icarium (and/or arguably Mappo) and the Thelomen Toblakai race at various points in the series. Fundamentally, it seems to refer to a force which can effect a change in a situation, with a random/uncontrollable factor thrown in.

2. Assuming they are collecting assassins, and that's only an assumption as far as it goes, I wonder... who else could ST and his allies be collecting assassins to strike at besides the CG...

Laseen is an obvious but too obvious choice.

Burn herself - certainly one way to ensure she doesn't wake up and destroy the world and it would explain Fid's reading.

Brood - similarly.

Rake - can't see any reason for it. Shadow and Dark are not in conflict and haven't been except that brief clash in GotM. Unless ST wants Dragnipur...

Kallor - nah, he's just a pawn.

Hmmm...


- Abyss, still likes the collection theory...

[Skywalker]

The more I think on the series (particularly now that I've read through from GoTM to RG, with NoK thrown in) the more I see there are three story threads/ elements in this series around which it revolves -

1) Shadowthrone's nefarious schemes and the Azath - obviously some huge gambit is in the offing that we know absolutely nothing about. One of its facets is keeping the Throne of Shadow and the First Throne of the T'lan Imass unoccupied. Another is

2) The Crippled God, and the resolution of that situation - the war among the pantheon has boiled down to a bid to control Burn and a bid to control K'rul (the warrens). Interestingly enough, our man ST hasn't really picked sides in this conflict yet... the Jade Giants and the KCCM invasion of the imperial warren may or may not have something to do with the CG tale.

3) Death, Dassem Ultor, the repercussions from Ultor's 'death' and betrayal etc. - Although this started as a simple spat between a god and his champion, it has reverberated to change the face of an empire (Malazan) and shaken the pantheon via domino effect. The importance of death as a thematic element, the ponderings on afterlife, Hood's secret deal with Paran, the multi-layered/ largely unpoliced deathworld we saw in RG etc. cannot be understated.

Now, the thing about ST collecting assassins may have something to do with either 1 or 3.

1 for obvious reasons... but why 3, you ask?

Think back to when we saw Vorcan and Rallick Nom get a suspended animation sentence in GoTM. Who was the next person who we saw in a similar state? Dassem's daughter! Now Kalam joins the ranks...

What's curious is that all the people collected 'dealt in death' and are currently semi-dead/ pseudo-dead/ meta-dead/ the diet coke of dead... EDIT: There is also that whole deal about WJ having been an acolyte of Hood or some such...

Not sure where this is heading to, but I have a feeling it has more to do with 3 than 1.

Enough rambling. Out!

[Sinisdar Toste]

very clever skywalker, you only forgot one thing...
what about KE? that is a huge deal too. the whole tiste race mystery ties into it as well.

[Ammanas]

Abyss;279617 said:

2. Assuming they are collecting assassins, and that's only an assumption as far as it goes, I wonder... who else could ST and his allies be collecting assassins to strike at besides the CG...

Laseen is an obvious but too obvious choice.

Burn herself - certainly one way to ensure she doesn't wake up and destroy the world and it would explain Fid's reading.

Brood - similarly.

Rake - can't see any reason for it. Shadow and Dark are not in conflict and haven't been except that brief clash in GotM. Unless ST wants Dragnipur...

Kallor - nah, he's just a pawn.

Hmmm...


- Abyss, still likes the collection theory...

I only remember one group that ST seems to deeply hate and that is the Nameless Ones. He really seem irritated by the release of Nebrahl and using the Hounds as Deragoth bait. The quote below illustrates what a great char ST is.

"Let me see if I understand you. The Nameless Idiots go and release Dejim Nebrahl. Why? Because they're idiots. Then, you, the Master Idiot of the Deck of Dragons, decide to release the Deagoth, to get rid of Dejim Nebrahl. But wait, even better! You want me to send the Hounds of Shadow to Seven Cities. Because it's finally occurred to that worm ridden walnut you call a brain that the Deragoth won't bother with Nebrahl until they find my Hounds. And if they come looking in my realm, there will be no stopping them. Pure genius. Why didn't I think of that? Why? Because I'm not an idiot."

There was also mention somewhere that he tried to eliminate the cult and if he and Cot were attempting to map the Azath(p444 BH--"We set out to map the Azath. Every House, across this entire realm. We set out to master its power." Easy to see how this would conflict with the Nameless Ones mission of guarding the Azath.

I vote for the collection theory and further predict that ST isn't done with Apsalar--regardless of his claims she is free. He already had eliminate one list of people--maybe he has a lot more targets and needs more killers to do the jobs in a timely manner.

[Skywalker]

Sinisdar Toste;279832 said:

very clever skywalker, you only forgot one thing...
what about KE? that is a huge deal too. the whole tiste race mystery ties into it as well.

Ooh yeah... actually I forgot that and two other major thingies... not sure we can lump em together... so:

4) Kurald Emurlahn and its many mysteries... and precedent setting break-up. Edgewalker, the Edur Royals, the extent of damage done by Bloodeye, the eventual fate of the warren, Trull and the Eres'al's child forged to rule a healed realm

5) The mystery that is Dragnipur and the chase of MD/ the gate to Kurald Galain by Chaos.

6) Icarium, the Nameless Ones, and how that will play out.

The thing is, these three seem like they are sub-plots... may contribute to the overall arc, but I suspect they are sidebars. 1, 2, and 3 are the crux of the saga

[Venerus]

Skywalker;279793 said:

EDIT: There is also that whole deal about WJ having been an acolyte of Hood or some such...

Mason of High House Death

[Ammanas]

The WJ is the Mason of Death speculation doesn't seem to have much foundation. The QoD specifically says Hood meddled to ensure WJ's death and ended up preventing the end of an age old curse(Elder god trio vs Kallor) It also means that Kallor was dead dead dead, were it not for Hood. The other side of the equation, which I will take great pleasure in reading about, is that Kallor will suffer a gruesome, agonizing demise. WJ would have dispatched him with a single thrust.

[Aptorian]

RAAAARRGGHH The Aptorian Quote Fiend is angry!

Why do people keep claiming that WJ is better than Kallor, so what if his leg broke? Kallor tripped on a spear but (or something) which was what gave WJ his opening in the first place. And even if WJ had run Kallor through and through, would that had killed him? he survived two crosbow shots and a sunfire burst from Tay after all.

EDIT: I hope Kallor kills Korlat and Orfantal and wears their skin as a draconean coat.