[Gozer]

Not sure where to put this and not sure whether i'm getting excited about northing or something that has been discussed before and thrown out for being complete rubbish and i'm rambling now... But it does have a bearing on TtH and all other books to come i think.

I'm doing a re-read of MoI at the mo and I have just come across something that got me thinking.

Pg 192, WJ, QB and Mallet are discussing Paran and his link to the Hounds. They go on to say some things about Silverfox. The jist of it is that Nightchill, as all know, is one of the souls in Silverfox, alongside Tattersail and Bellurdan. QB is asked what warren Nighchill employed and he says Rashan.

Mallet asks "What was her warren?"
"Rashan, as far as I could tell", QB said sourly,"Darkness"

As we all know, Nightchill is the Elder God in the prologue of MoI, who goes to do over Kallor. She is never mentioned by name in the prologue, and she is an Elder God.

So, an Elder God with no name, who employs Darkness as her warren.

Could Nighchill be Mother Dark? And now be one of the souls in Silverfox?

Please do not be too harsh with your judgments.

If I have left anything out, apologies. I have it all in my head but it's hard to put it into words.

Discuss.

[Illuyankas]

Sorry, old bean, but all the evidence we have pretty much states outright that Nightchill and Mother Dark are two different entities. Locations (MD's stuck in Kurald Galain after the KCCM deathspell, Nightchill's in Silverfox), the Draconian Family Tree (search from the main forum page if you haven't seen it yet, I forget which subforum it's in), Rake and Korlat's reactions to Silverfox, etc.

All new ideas are welcome, though - we have no problem admitting there's still quite a lot we don't know yet, and any speculation is good speculation.








Except about Hood wanting a wife and Temper being ST's son. That's bad.

[Gozer]

I'm not quite ready to hang my head in same. My original post is probably wrong, but the reasons you gave do not add up. MD being in KG? Rake & Korlat's reaction to Silverfox? How does their reaction determine whether or not Nightchill is MD? And the Draconian family tree does not mention Nightchill as it is an alias!

Please be aware that i do not fully believe myself, let alone expect anyone else to, but please provide hard evidence against this idea.

Old bean? Cambridge grad?

[Toblakai]

Icarium Jnr;277313 said:

I'm not quite ready to hang my head in same. My original post is probably wrong, but the reasons you gave do not add up. MD being in KG? Rake & Korlat's reaction to Silverfox? How does their reaction determine whether or not Nightchill is MD? And the Draconian family tree does not mention Nightchill as it is an alias!

Please be aware that i do not fully believe myself, let alone expect anyone else to, but please provide hard evidence against this idea.

Old bean? Cambridge grad?

It seems to me that if SoCN/Nightchill was MD, she would be accessing Kurald Galain(her own Warren) rather than Rashan, its bastard child. Also, remember Rake's and Korlat's ages; they would probably have encountered SoCN before.

As to mother Dark being in KG:
1. It is her own Warren
2. It was stated pretty conclusively-I think in HoC-that MD had retreated deep into KG

As far as the Draconean family tree, I am mostly clueless, but would assume that Draconus is linked to it, and he refers to SoCN as 'sister.

[Abyss]

It's not a completely rediculous theory, just a very unlikely one.

Keep in mind, when Mallet and QB are discussing Nightchill in MoI, they think they are discussing a High Mage who's been around a long time. They don't know they are actually discussing an immortal Elder God, known as Sister of Cold Nights, who's been pretending to be human Nightchill for a hundred thousand years or so.

So 'as far as QB could tell' may mean her power has the flavour of Rashan/Darkness, but is actually Kurald Galain, Hold magic, or something else entirely, tho still linked to 'Darkness'.

Illy's popint is that Rake, being allegedly the 'son' of Mommy D, should be able to recognize her aspect inside Silverfox. Korlat, being a draconic ascendent, might also be able to.

That said, it's been speculated that Mother Dark is the theoretical embodiment of the universe, and that it's the KC Matron death spell that will ultimately kill her, ending everything. That's a tall order to be embodied in someone who was ripped apart by one of Tayshrenn's pet demons.

Now that being said, if SOCD/Nightchilll is an Elder God aspected to primal darkness in some way, it's not rediculous to think that she has some connection to MD we have yet to see referenced.


- Abyss, needs an electric blanket...

[Illuyankas]

Icarium Jnr;277313 said:

I'm not quite ready to hang my head in same. My original post is probably wrong, but the reasons you gave do not add up. MD being in KG? Rake & Korlat's reaction to Silverfox? How does their reaction determine whether or not Nightchill is MD? And the Draconian family tree does not mention Nightchill as it is an alias!

Please be aware that i do not fully believe myself, let alone expect anyone else to, but please provide hard evidence against this idea.

Old bean? Cambridge grad?

Alright then.

The KCCM, after having their asses handed to them by Scabby and Ruin well before the T'lan Imass Ritual, performed a spell that doomed the universe, effectively, sending MD into the deepest parts of KG and causing the universe to have an actual end - from MT. MD is also hiding from the Andii after they got all huffy about the Liosan and Edur - from every other book with an Andii in.

MD is Rake and Korlat's creator, who they knew personally before she left. Rake met Silverfox, and Korlat spent months in her company, while Silverfox admitted outright to having Nightchill's soul in her. I don't see how Korlat, or Rake in particular, could not tell their mother from another, different Elder God.

Nightchill is the alias of the Sister of Cold Nights, who IS on the Family Tree, and who was present at the Fall of the Crippled God alongside K'rul and Draconus during the time MD is gone from the world. So yes, Nightchill and MD are different.

Oh, and not a Cambridge grad, just a tit.

EDIT: As an aside, I reread MOI recently and at the beginning, during the Parley when they're trying to find out the name of the Elder God who was there when Silverfox was created, Kallor actually said K'rul, loud enough for people to hear, and no-one cared at all. It was a bit of a "Wait, what?" moment.

[Gozer]

Fantastic explanation. I retract my statement, but wish you to see where the thought came from.

The key element was the fact that Nightchill used Rashan, aka Darkness. Why would an elder god use the warren of darkness? Surely an elder god has access to their own warren/power source?

I have just found the ref to Sister of Cold Nights in the family tree, so do accept the error, but if not for this entry in the family tree posted by Hetan, i recon my theory would be partially credible. Well, minutely credible.

I am still having trouble accepting this. PLEASE explain why she is using Rashan! I need to know. It doesn't make sense.

Your not a tit, your just a very special person.

[Aptorian]

Just because someone uses a warren doesn't mean they are bound to it.

If you want to get this discussion really complicated, it's believed that it's Nightchill that froze A'karonys(sp?) at Pale. Seeing as there (apparently) isn't a human ice warren, that means she was using Omtose Phellack. I don't think anyone believes she is a Jaghut.

Funny thing, Baruks Draconian Tree isn't completely accurate. Erikson has told us this himself

[Abyss]

1. see my post above. She's not using Rashan, it just SEEMS like it.

2. Illy IS special. Tell him that a lot. It makes him feel better when the other kids steal his toys and pistol-whip him.


- Abyss, all about the love.

[Gozer]

I feel most honoured to be speaking to you Abyss, btw.

Q. Where "it's believed that it's Nightchill that froze A'karonys(sp?) at Pale" did this come from?

I would have thought that an elder god would not have need, nor inclination, to use another warren.

[Aptorian]

Abyss;277334 said:

1. see my post above. She's not using Rashan, it just SEEMS like it.

We're getting into a different discussion now, but, every where else but on Lether, the holds were gone. It's my impression that even an old dude like Rake is channeling darkness through the warren of Rashan. After all he's the Knight in the House of Dark. Therefore it would also make sense that Nightchill, is just using Rashan.

Icarium Jnr;277338 said:

Q. Where "it's believed that it's Nightchill that froze A'karonys(sp?) at Pale" did this come from?

I would have thought that an elder god would not have need, nor inclination, to use another warren.

This is a can of worms that's not fully understood, but it's the general consensus that while Rake was firing down at everyone a contest for the sword took place between Tay and Nightchill. She wanted to steal the sword, so she might use it in a more ruthless fashion and Tay wanted to prevent that.

Nightchill sought to take out her competition first. She took out A'karonys with the ice and then Tay unleashed the demon that killed her in retaliation. Whether it was Nightchill or Tay (by accident(?)) that took out Hairlock is uncertain.

As for why a god would want to use another warren. Why not? It would suit the purpose, ice against a firemage.

[Venerus]

Illuyankas;277320 said:

EDIT: As an aside, I reread MOI recently and at the beginning, during the Parley when they're trying to find out the name of the Elder God who was there when Silverfox was created, Kallor actually said K'rul, loud enough for people to hear, and no-one cared at all. It was a bit of a "Wait, what?" moment.

Why is that a "Wait, what?" moment? Didn't we already know that from GotM, when Kruppe and company reshape Silver in that dream?

As for her using a darkness-themed warren and a cold-themed warren -- Sister of Cold Nights -- ice and darkness. And of course, KG is described as being incredibly chilly in GotM (though nowhere else, it seems). So, I could see an argument that Nightchill is at least related to MD somehow.

[Illuyankas]

@Venerus: Chapter 5, Page 203 of the paperback version of MOI, Brood is talking to Kruppe and asks him which Elder God was in his dream, as apparently they didn't know. Although rererereading the part where Kallor says K'rul's name, Crone spots it but says nothing about it to Brood, or anyone else for that matter. So it seems a bit odd to me.

@Abyss: I'M LOVELY, DAMN YOU

LOVELY

[q21]

I'm too lazy to check this up, but isn't Rashan one of the offshoots of Kurald Emurlahn? If I'm correct doesn't that make linking someone to elder Darkness through Rashan wrong?

Just my two cents worth...

[Aptorian]

Rashan is Darkness

Meanas is Shadow and Illussion.

[q21]

I know that's what Rashan is now, but I always thought that it, along with Meanas and Thyr, came from KE. I could be crazy, though.

[Toblakai]

q21;277396 said:

I know that's what Rashan is now, but I always thought that it, along with Meanas and Thyr, came from KE. I could be crazy, though.

I was under the impression that Thyr(and maybe Serc) were off-shoots of Kurald Thyrllann, The Elder Warren of Light. But perhaps I am fooled by the similarities of words: Osric/Osseric/Osserc/Serc Thyrllan/Thyr?

[Venerus]

To me, from Apsalar's comments in HoC, it sounds a whole lot like Meanas, Rashan and Thyr come from KE, KG and KT. There's a loooong discussion of the three in some RG thread, I think. Everyone has their own theories.