[Dancer+]

Forgive my post - I'm feeling disorientated.

Whiskeyjack couldn't heal his leg because of Hood retaliation against Whiskeyjack's interference in his sister's Hood affairs. Oponn may have been involved too, I cannot for the life of me remember. Basically upto a point we think WJ is too stubborn to heal his leg but, in BH, we found out he couldn't have healed his leg, he tried multiple times under other people's insistance.

[Macros]

Ain said:

You know what pisses me off? How most of the tragedies could have been avoided.

*If Admiral Nok had defied Pormqual/if Pormqual hadn't been such a wuss: Coltaine and the 7th would still be alive. Easy things to do.

*If WJ had just gotten his leg fixed, or at least stabilised so it wouldn't break: He'd still be alive.

*If Sirryn Kanar had been killed/taken a wrong turn to the Domicile: Trull would still be alive.

And god knows what else.

Isn't that the point of tragedy? Its something so profoundly saddening that could have been so easily avoided, generally at a time when things are FINALLY going to the good for someone who's had a pretty torrid time of things.

[Mentalist]

hmmm

@ AIJ?
The one that always gets to me is when Pearl swears to get Tavore, because "she left Lostara to her death", while Lostara is in the keep at the same time.....

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Macros;278793 said:

Isn't that the point of tragedy? Its something so profoundly saddening that could have been so easily avoided, generally at a time when things are FINALLY going to the good for someone who's had a pretty torrid time of things.

Yes... I suppose. But god, it tears me up.

@kud13

I never did like Pearl, and since Lostara was alive, I didn't really care. Besides, even though he didn't know she was alive, I thought he was an idiot for doing so.

[VampireGoat]

Icarium still stands as the most tragic character for me. A character that posseses a child-like innocence and doesnt have any real desire to do anyone or anything harm, yet is cursed to go bezerk when he loses his temper and become everything he hates, an uber powered super destroyer. Combined with his endless hopeless search for who he is amd where he came from, which he is again doomed to forget.

I know there has been some headway for him but as a character through most of the series he stands as the character who has the worst 'lot in life'.

The other main favourites here I can't help but disagree with

Apsalar has had it rough true, she lost out early on but since gotm she has had ample chance to turn things around. Plenty of people have attempted to befriend her and support her but she herself has simply done nothing more then turn her head at every opertunity. Wallowing in self-pity isn't tragic in my opinion just miserable

As for beak, his death was sad but he himself wasn't a sad character. He had it rough but he finally finds somewhere he feels he belongs, finally finds his place in the world and people he can call friends, finally finds somethin so special to him it's worth dieing for to protect. Beaks death is sad but for beak himself it's his happy ending, he has a purpose and he was happy to step up and meet it. He died smiling and he went through hood's gate to his brother smiling.

Have to agree with Toc though. He's a guy that has tried to do the right thing time and time again and gets smacked in the face for it again and again. He's tog's favourite play thing and screw it if toc disagree's. Even in death his service is still demand.

Watch out any one-eye'd characters they aint finished with toc yet...

Don't see much tragedy in tool either, sure he has had it rough but compared to most of his imass kin he's got it pretty damn sweet. He lost a friend but gained flesh, a sister, a wife and children. Having said that he is having to raise two of kruppe's kids which may potentialy be something of a nightmare

[Abyss]

Dancer;278632 said:

Forgive my post - I'm feeling disorientated.

Whiskeyjack couldn't heal his leg because of Hood retaliation against Whiskeyjack's interference in his sister's Hood affairs. Oponn may have been involved too, I cannot for the life of me remember. Basically upto a point we think WJ is too stubborn to heal his leg but, in BH, we found out he couldn't have healed his leg, he tried multiple times under other people's insistance.

Not exactly.

Out of revenge for WJ rescuing Dunsparrow, Hood influenced an aversion to healing in Whiskeyjack. So WJ never got his leg properly healed. Mallet did a quick job post GotM and WJ never gave him a chance to finish it. Similarly, he declined seeing Brood or any other healer, in theory because he's stubborn and there was never enough time, but really, because Hood had done a Jedi mind fuck.

Which suggests Hood knew the leg would be significant at some point, but probably didn't know exactly how. Givwe his alliance with ST and QoD, i imagine Hood wasn't too happy to take out one of his allies' best generals and seriously impact on the battle with the Seer. Then again, maybe Death doesn't care...

- Abyss, thinks Hood deserves a wedgie...

[May be a Necromancer]

While she doesn't contend with the aforementioned juggernaughts of tragedy, theres one character I feel deserves a mention.

Nisall.
In MT you really get the impression that she loves Ezgara and cares deeply for Lether, only to you know, have to watch Ezgara and Brys die as she stands there helplessly. Wonder WHY someone who she thought loved her didn't even offer her some of that poisoned wine. (Yes, later explained that it wasn't suicide as we all probably assumed, but that was never revealed to her) So she tries to make the best of all that, serve (the implication of the italics make me giggle) the new emperor, watch him being maniuplated by Triban Gnol, cry like a pathetic child after making love to her, fall deeper and deeper into madness and again be utterly helpless to prevent any of it. Then, when she finally gets a chance to try to right some of the wrongs... oh she just gets arrested and uncerimoniously slaughtered.

Helplessness is a tragically awful feeling, and in the time we know Nisal her life is pretty much defined by it.

[Mentalist]

because he's the Errant.... and all that coves with it... join LHTEC

also, don't remeber if I mentioned Baratol Mekhar--the man is supposedly guilty of a massacre and ppl died for him, without him wanting any part of it... just another one of SE's plays on "followers defining the leader's/god's actions" theme...

[Sinisdar Toste]

udinaas in MT is verry verry tragic. he recognizes so completely what it is to be used. if he hadn't been possessed by the wyval, then rhulad could have been saved, so much bad stuff coulda been avoided.

and it sucks even more cuz before then rhulad was getting closer to fear and trull, and really starting to learn how to fashion an empire with udinaas at his side, all very tragic

[Mentalist]

"Let's Hate THe Errant Club"--see Gem Windcaster for further details....

[Draconus]

While Trull's fate is certainly tragic, lets not forget the man has a card in the Deck now, I'm sure we'll be seeing him again.

I mean, if Hedge can pull through...

[dawnkiller]

With Erikson's dramatic predilictions it might be easier to state who's not inherently tragic. *G* Notably figures IMO are:

Felisin Paran: Jerked around by pretty much every force fate had to offer. Tavore's attempts at protection and rescue not only failed miserably, but couldn't save her from herself -- no matter how innocent she was at the start, that was pretty much worn off by the time she progressed to whoring herself out for favors. On top of that, she was drafted into the (suicidal) role of Sha'ik by a movement and a goddess who neither knew nor cared about her. While she tried vaguely to fill the gaping spiritual void with orphans, basically every one of her "allies" was plotting against her. Dryjhna appeared to be erroding her sense of self. She tried to use the Apocalypse to her own ends, but that proved unsustainable by the time she and Tavore fought -- with the added punch of a final thought "I just wanted to know, Tavore, why you didn't love me when I loved you.", with Pearl and Lostra so close but unable to do anything.

Tavore: Aside from losing her almost her entire family, inadvertantly killing one of them herself, she was made to be one of Laseen's last reliable agents, which was a position of enormous pressure. In addition to losing her one trusted advisor in DG, she then lost T'Amber, which reduced her personal support system to zero. She intentionally holds herself distant from the Third, but while that's a good move for a commander has to be excruciating for someone with no other form of support (Lostra doesn't really count). She's alone, she's got to be alone, and she appears to suspect it's only a matter of time before she'll have to sacrifice her army (and probably herself) for the Empress.

Rhulad: Agreement that he was the best fit for tragic figure in RG. He starts out as a young, smitten boy in the shadow of his older brothers, and unfortunately the route he took to prove himself was offered by the Crippled God. Engaging in a deal that's guaranteed to make all victories fatally tainted isn't a good move. His first wife not only had never really wanted him, but went insane, his brothers turned against him, and all his (sincere) attempts to make life better for the people of the Empire failed due to inexperience and the ignorance and isolation deliberatly cultivated by his "advisors". I think one of the most gut-wrenching scenes in MT was when the Sengars had a family dinner after a victory, and just for a moment it seemed like old times. Then, of course, everything went to hell. He never even had a chance.

Trull's (wallbanger of a) death was tragic, but, as has been pointed out, Trull was able to make friends and form attachments before then. He had friends, and the friendship was reciprocated; to my mind that removes the additional factor of desolation which really puts a character over the top for me. Beak (probably my favorite character in RG), likewise, was I think valued more than his poor sense of self-worth allowed him to recognize, and he certainly felt happy in the army. Tragic in that he didn't realize just how bad his childhood had been, maybe, but he did get a happy ending.

Ironically, I think I felt worse for Tool than Toc near the end of RG. Toc was pretty much the universe's chewtoy, sure, but what had to really twist the knife for Tool is that it was his choice never to tell Toc his true identity, and that he was the one too late to save him.

(Besides, I don't think we can count Toc's run as over yet anyway.)

[dawnkiller]

Briar King;282972 said:

Glad you brought that up cause I have a question:

Since Trull has a card does that mean he is an asendant? What about Ganoes and Apsalar?

I think it was established in an earlier book that different people can fill different roles in the Houses at different times. IIRC, Kalam's been Assassin once, but he's not an ascendant. Trull filled the role of Knight, but I don't think he's necessarily THE Knight.

[Abyss]

Exactly. A role in a reading of the Deck and a position in a House are not the same thing. Repeat: A role in a reading of the Deck and a position in a House are not the same thing. A role in a reading of the Deck and a position in a House are not the same thing. Repeat as needed.

Also, not all Ascendents are in Houses, and not everyone in a House is necessarily an Ascendent.

- Abyss, welcomes back dk, who's been gone like forever.

[dawnkiller]

Abyss;283050 said:

Exactly. A role in a reading of the Deck and a position in a House are not the same thing. Repeat: A role in a reading of the Deck and a position in a House are not the same thing. A role in a reading of the Deck and a position in a House are not the same thing. Repeat as needed.

Also, not all Ascendents are in Houses, and not everyone in a House is necessarily an Ascendent.

- Abyss, welcomes back dk, who's been gone like forever.

What can I say? Like the wind, I come and go as I will . . . or, you know, get distracted. In this case, I got lost in the course of a theoretically brief detour into the collected works of Chuck Palahniuck.

Now whether Trull has been legitimately inducted into Shadow is arguably a question open to debate (as far as I know) -- heck, Baudin got drafted post-mortem. (And I still keep expecting to see Kulp, but ah well.)

PS: Does Canada even have White Castle?

[Tehol Beddict]

Beak. I BAWLED when he was sent to Hood's Gate... Also, Truth comes to mind. The way he just ran into those fires in Y'Ghatan was so sad... Rhulad was also one for me. After he lost Udinaas, he just got more and more abused my that bastard, Hannan Mosag. May Hood shove a cusser up his pimply ass for eternity...

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Tehol Beddict;285225 said:

Beak. I BAWLED when he was sent to Hood's Gate... Also, Truth comes to mind. The way he just ran into those fires in Y'Ghatan was so sad... Rhulad was also one for me. After he lost Udinaas, he just got more and more abused my that bastard, Hannan Mosag. May Hood shove a cusser up his pimply ass for eternity...

Yeah... Truth, even after everything that had happened, was still a wide-eyed, young recruit when he died at Y'Ghatan. After seeing so many depressed, embittered old soljas, it was refreshing. Poor Ges and Stormy, they did their best to help him.

[Holsety]

Ain said:

Yeah... Truth, even after everything that had happened, was still a wide-eyed, young recruit when he died at Y'Ghatan. After seeing so many depressed, embittered old soljas, it was refreshing. Poor Ges and Stormy, they did their best to help him.

Pella too. Helped felisin out, seemed like a nice guy. Got a mercifully quick death IIRC, something like a crossbow bolt or something?

Mayen was pretty tragic. The first Edur after Rhulad to be the victim of the CG's reach.