[Deragoth]

Just finished re-reading DHG and I noticed that D'ivers was mentioned as a higher order of shapeshifting. Are there some facts we can apply to this? Is there any record of D'ivers and shapeshifters battles? Someone want to put their brain to workand compile a record of D'ivers verses Shapeshifters?

I'm honestly curious about the First Empire and it's society choosing to choose a path of shapeshifting out of sheer boredom.

[Aptorian]

It's not as easy as saying D'ivers kick normal soletakens ass. There's other factors like age, ascendancy, form, dragon blood, etc...

And if you're thinking Dejim, he was special, being a demon d'ivers.

[Kalahinen]

I think it is called 'higher' is because it's harder to achieve and/or harder to control. Treach had some monologue about this matter in MoI, after being wounded by the Kell Hunters.

As for the D'ivers vs. Soletaken, here are a few:

- Ryllandaras vs. Treach (mentioned in MoI) outcome unknown, neither died
- Gryllen vs. Messremb: Gryllen seemed quite nervous about the Soletaken bear, as I recall him flooding away in 'rat-mode'

Can't remember any more conflicts mentioned...

[Deragoth]

I was actually looking in the glossary / character index of DHG. I will look up the Treach passages. thanks.

[Mentalist]

Treach's poassaqge is in MoI, I read it coupla days ago.
the gist of it is, the Ritual drove many mad. Some, so mad as to develop SPD. oO those, the strongest found a solution by becoming D'ivers...

will give quote when home again with book

[Quick~]

I didn't think D'ivers was a solution as such, but rather that the passage implied that as the ritual got out of control it gave birth to the D'ivers (something beyond the participants control), meaning either its a higher order of shapeshifting because its a rarer occurence, or simply because of the added benefits you can find in numbers etc.

[Vengeance]

Well I found one passage MOI us edition pg 231

Quote

" I am Treach - one of many names. Trake, the tiger of Summer, the Talons of War. Silent Hunter. I was there at the end, one fo the few survivors once the T'lan Imass were done with us. Brutal, merciful slaughter. They had no choice - I see that now, though none of us were prepared to forgive. Not then. The wounds were too fresh.
Gods, we tore a warren to pieces on that distant continent. Turned the eastlands into molten stone that cooled and became something that defied sorcery. The T'lan Imass sacrificed thousands to cut away the cancer we had become. It was the end, the end of all that promise, all that bright glory. The end of the First Empire. Hubris, to have claimed a name that rightly belonged to the T'lan Imass....
We fled, a handful of survivors. Ryllandaras, old friend - we fell out clashed, then clashed again on another continent. He had gone the farthest, found a way to control the gifts - Soletaken and D'ivers both. White Jackal. Ay'tog. Agkor. And my other companion, Messremb - where has he gone? A kind soul, twisted by madness, yet so loyal, ever loyal....
Ascending. Fierce arrival - the First Heroes. Dark, savage."

pg231/232

Quote

"The White Jackal had vanished into mists centuries past, dead, or if not dead, then as good as. Treach had driven him from a ledge, sent him spinning and writhing down into hte fathomless crevasse. No enemies worthy of the name since then. The tiger's arrogance was legendary - it had not been difficult, embracing such assurity"

There you go. I don't think that he has ever pointed out what makes one stronger then the other. Their Will, or perhaps a longer exposure to what ever made them into a soultaken or D'iver in the first place. Or it might be age. How old a soultaken and or D'iver was before they all went mad. From what Treach is saying it seemed like he thought that Ryllandaras had found a way to be both and to not be insane. Of course he though that Ryllandaras was dead so. Hope those help. I will look for more.

[Mentalist]

good job, Venge!
allow me to add some more..
MoI mmpb, pg 313-314
Memories of Treach

"The final days--so long ago now, had been chaotic. The ritual had unraveled, unexpectedly, unpredictaly. Madness gripped the Soletaken. Madness splintered the more powerful of his kin, broke on into many, the burgeoning power wild, bllo-hungry, bithing the D'ivers. The empire was tearing itself apart."

So, like I said--D'ivers can be interpreted as a coping mechanism for MPS....

[Venerus]

Kalahinen;266628 said:

I think it is called 'higher' is because it's harder to achieve and/or harder to control. Treach had some monologue about this matter in MoI, after being wounded by the Kell Hunters.

As for the D'ivers vs. Soletaken, here are a few:

- Ryllandaras vs. Treach (mentioned in MoI) outcome unknown, neither died
- Gryllen vs. Messremb: Gryllen seemed quite nervous about the Soletaken bear, as I recall him flooding away in 'rat-mode'

Can't remember any more conflicts mentioned...

Actually, I believe Gryllen ran away in "rat-mode" from Icarium. The passage in DHG actually suggests Messremb fled Gryllen.

p. 195 DHG:

"The bear [Messremb] roared in sudden alarm. Fiddler twisted around in time to see the beast bolt away. Oh, Hood, if he's fleeing....
(skip a bit)
He finally saw the newcomer. Newcomers. Like a seething, lumpy black carpet, the D'ivers rolled over the cobbles. Rats, hundreds. Yet one. Hundreds? Thousands. Oh, Hood, I know this one"


There you have it. There's a passage in HoC, after Ryllandras has been chasing Karsa for a few days, where Karsa meets Icarium and Mappo for that memorable first time. He tells them the wolves number twelve (even though in DHG some of Ryllandras's numbers were killed by... Apt, I think), and Mappo and Icarium seem to think that's a sign of his increasing power, though they're not sure.

So, my conclusion is that one way of categorizing D'ivers' power is their number. For Soletaken, there's some suggestion that size matters. Kilava is a HUGE panther, Olar Ethil is clearly the badest-assest dragon ever and she's ginormous, etc etc. Examples abound.

<3
Ven

[Mentalist]

That is true
Fid also says how Gryllenn's gotten stronger since the last time he was seen when he was "flushed out of Y'Ghatan"

[Silencer]

Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that Ryllandaras had managed to control both Soletaken and D'ivers 'gifts'.
Also, the quote where D'ivers is the result of madness is the most solid thing we have here - it split them into parts, but it also states that this created more power.
As for Soletaken versus D'ivers, the Treach/Ryllandaras battle was when R was still the White Jackal - therefore only Soletaken.

[Deragoth]

Great examples guys... Yeah I figured that soletaken had some badasses such as Olar and some of the newer generation Andii. I was wondering how some of the "swarm" type D'ivers (Gryllen, Bloodfly guy?) would deal with such a huge soletaken

Anyhow, it would be really cool for SE to write about the Ritual of the First "human" Empire and their subsequent destruction by the T'lan Imass.

[Optimus Prime]

Wouldn't Tiam be the ultimate dragon though? Since her blood gave rise to the massively powerful Eleint such as Osseric, Rake, Scabby, Silchas etc? Even bigger than Olar Ethil?

[Venerus]

Sure, but is there any reason to think she's Soletaken as well? Seems ... unfair (??) to compare the genuine article to Soletaken forms -- I mean, a regular bunch of rats probably sucks compared to Gryllen, but maybe a "true" demon has mo' powa' than Moby.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

D'ivers and Soletaken aren't mortal enemies- at least, i don't think so.

In DG:

"The Emperor clashed with Ryllandaras and Treach outside Li heng. I was there."

-Fid

Now, maybe they were fought separately, but from the sentence, it sounds like they were a team....

In fact, since in MoI Ryllandaras is referred by Treach as "old friend", it seems I'm right.

Mind you, they both lived a while ago. Maybe today's generation of shapeshifters are bigots.

[Optimus Prime]

I'm sure that the old Soletaken and D'ivers were at times friends and enemies. Their dark and primal natures probably led to an uneasy co-existence at best.

Lots of ups and downs.

[Kalahinen]

Venerus;266753 said:

Actually, I believe Gryllen ran away in "rat-mode" from Icarium. The passage in DHG actually suggests Messremb fled Gryllen.

p. 195 DHG:

"The bear [Messremb] roared in sudden alarm. Fiddler twisted around in time to see the beast bolt away. Oh, Hood, if he's fleeing....
(skip a bit)
He finally saw the newcomer. Newcomers. Like a seething, lumpy black carpet, the D'ivers rolled over the cobbles. Rats, hundreds. Yet one. Hundreds? Thousands. Oh, Hood, I know this one"


There you have it. There's a passage in HoC, after Ryllandras has been chasing Karsa for a few days, where Karsa meets Icarium and Mappo for that memorable first time. He tells them the wolves number twelve (even though in DHG some of Ryllandras's numbers were killed by... Apt, I think), and Mappo and Icarium seem to think that's a sign of his increasing power, though they're not sure.
Ven

I was actually referring to the first encounter between Messremb and Gryllen in DG, when Gryllen was in his human form with Felisin, Kulp and Baudin inside his magical barrier. Messremb forced himself through the ward and attacked Gryllen. Someone with the book could quote this...Was this when Baudin died?

[Deragoth]

Kalahinen;266928 said:

I was actually referring to the first encounter between Messremb and Gryllen in DG, when Gryllen was in his human form with Felisin, Kulp and Baudin inside his magical barrier. Messremb forced himself through the ward and attacked Gryllen. Someone with the book could quote this...Was this when Baudin died?

Yes you're right. Gryllen wanted to be left alone to eat Kulp, Baudin and co. He was a bit antsy (haha).

[Vengeance]

Here it is....
DG pg 526

Quote

" The merchant's voice filled her mind.Do not fear for yourself, my dear. Wealth and peace, every indulgence to sate your desires, and I am gentle-to those I choose, oh so gentle....
She hesitated.
Leave to me this hard-skinned stranger and the old man, then I shall deal with Messremb, that foul most rude Soletaken who so dislikes me....

That should be the right quote...They don't meet at the Azath house. Messremb gets taken by the house before Gryllen's attack. Then Gryllen dies when Fid throws the conch shell and the sound it makes fries all of the rats....

[Venerus]

Now I'm confused -- did someone suggest they met at the Azath?