[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Yeah, I think you're safe if you've never heard of God. If you have though, and don't believe, it's the fires for you.

[Cause]

@Macros, the thing is you need to remeber that what you consider to be a good person and what the bible if real, or even what people believed 3000 years ago who wrote it believe are a good person is not the same thing. A person who does not believe in god is not a good person

If Im not mistaken both judaism and muslims believe its a kind of mental insansity at best and an insult to the creator to whom you owe respect at worst

[Obdigore]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;343128 said:

Yeah, I think you're safe if you've never heard of God. If you have though, and don't believe, it's the fires for you.

According to the JW's, if you have never heard of god and died, your next thought is being woken in paradise on earth and given the chance to learn. If you turn down or are still a bad person, you will be no more.

Only the people that have the chance and turn away are gone forever, and there is no hell in the religion, just non-existance.

[Cause]

You know I can deal with non existance. Wont care one way or the other I guess. But hell? My god imagine being tortured for millenia without end. Thats just sick

[Obdigore]

Meh, Hell is not ever mentioned in the bible. Fires of destruction are. So many religions/people assume its a fiery hatefull place to balance out heaven. JW's just view it as non-existance.

Meh, they (JW elders) couldn't answer my questions with what I felt were good answers, so they asked me to leave. I guess not being able to take something that needs to be proven on faith dosen't fit with that whole religion thing.

That is something I have against most christian religions. If I don't believe in god, but am a 'good' member of society, and do what I can to help others, I get tortured for ever because I got one answer wrong in some seventy year test?

That is why I think Religions are just a means to control the populus by those in power, but hey, I guess I am a cynic and this is technically the wrong thread to explore those thoughts once more.

[Macros]

Ah, that clears up my biggest issue with their statement of worshiping god is the only route to heaven, basically when the last person on earth gets informed about god it all ends (over simplifying here obviously) My arguemtn was always that its hardly fair to send a good man to hell jsut because you don't know about god.

regarding this comment:

cause said:

A person who does not believe in god is not a good person

is that a statement or an extrapolatoin of your earlier musings?
if the latter ok, its a bit bizare, if the former I am shocked at such a statement, I personally don't beleive in the big guy, but I hardly consider myself a bad person, where I know plenty of christians who go to church an praise god religious (heh) and are frankly horrible, narrow minded hating biggots.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I think he was stating the belief of some, not his personal belief.

Doesn't the bible define hell as the absence of a connection to God, or something like that? If not, where did I hear that?

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Cause;343133 said:

You know I can deal with non existance. Wont care one way or the other I guess. But hell? My god imagine being tortured for millenia without end. Thats just sick

I could deal with Hell. There's something about ceaseless torture that doesn't actually scare me as much as non-existence. Besides, all the COOL KIDS are going to hell.

Anyway- as to the topic. I'm fairly certain consensus (like most issues) relegates this to a difference of opinion among the multitudes of sects. There's no straight answer.

[Obdigore]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;343157 said:

I think he was stating the belief of some, not his personal belief.

Doesn't the bible define hell as the absence of a connection to God, or something like that? If not, where did I hear that?

I have heard it described (nothing bible based) by a couple different people as what the world would be like without religion. Of course those same people believe that if you aren't religious, you cannot have morals...

[Illuyankas]

Yeah, right. The same people who say that without religion they'd be out murdering every night, no doubt.

[Cause]

Macros I was indeed stating the beliefs of others. I myself am an athiest. I only wanted to point out that what you consider to be good does not match with what religeon thinks. The torah uses the word abomination to describe mxing meat and milk as well as being gay. I myself think a cheese burger is just disgusting and gay a life choice. Niether makes you good or evil. But the holy book says otherwise. Their are eve more examples Im sure.

When I tell people Im an athiest I always get asked a hundred questions. People are stunned into disbelief and like obdigore has mentioned almost all wonder why I have not killed anyone yet.


@Adjutant stormy-You would really rather be tortured forever, than not exis. I cant understand that. If you can cope with the torture its not really torture.

[Terez]

I don't think he was saying that he could cope with torture so much as he was saying that the idea of nonexistence freaks him the fuck out.

And dude...cheeseburgers are awesome.

[Macros]

Cheese burgers are aweseom, I may make one right now to prove my point, you sir clearly have no morals
I was just checking to make sure it wasnt your belief before I exploded
That particular line of though annoys me to no end, because I don't believe in god I'm inherently evil? I can't possibly be a good person? Ye gads If someone ever said that to me I'd feel like punching them right in the face, thus probably proving them right

And obdi - Imagine a world without religion, would we be all be murdering each other nonstop or would the crusades, numerous jihads, and countless other tragic massacres not have happened. ( i knwo you're scorning the idea but i was jsut posting me thoughts on the topic)

[Obdigore]

Maccy...

It depends, the sheeple would need another reason to keep them from proclaiming and frolicking about in complete anarchy.

I refuse to speculate that the world would be a better place without religion, because people would find other reasons (money, land, race, langauge, whatever) to stir up hate against people different to gain power. And once in power, they have to continue those feelings to remain in power.

I'm going to goodwin, but take the Nazi's and Hitler. They were not technically religious, but the fever that gripped the country and people of the Nazi party are in my opinion very cult-like.

As RLY's sig said for a while, a person firm in their black and white beliefs is often the one holding the gun.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

"Anyone who maintains absolute standards of good and evil is dangerous. As dangerous as a maniac with a loaded revolver. In fact, the person who maintains absolute standards of good and evil usually is the maniac with the revolver." -Tom Robbins

[Obdigore]

Yea, that thing.

[Macros]

I wasnt saying a religionless world would be any bette,r its jsut the counter arguement I offer to people who suggest a religionless world would be anarchy. Personally I think religion and its tennents are mostly fine (most beliefs I've heard of support moral right actions and suggest you should be a good person) my problem is with organised religion, putting the power of control of the masses into a few at the top.

[Obdigore]

Macros;343831 said:

I wasnt saying a religionless world would be any bette,r its jsut the counter arguement I offer to people who suggest a religionless world would be anarchy. Personally I think religion and its tennents are mostly fine (most beliefs I've heard of support moral right actions and suggest you should be a good person) my problem is with organised religion, putting the power of control of the masses into a few at the top.

Then you have a problem with every system of government and every economic system in use?

Religion is just another way for people to control other people.

[Macros]

well put like that yes i suppose my problem could be a problem with the establishment.

I am not very good and voicing my dislikes in a way that makes sense

Ok, whilst a government exists to control and regulate, they are elected people. A prophet or religious leader can be any crazy head, if he gets himself into a position of respect his rhetoric can affect many peoples thinking. I think thats sort of what I mean

[Obdigore]

So you are saying that people in power who support and represent the will of the people below them are fine, but people in power who are there to dictate the will of the people below them is bad?