[Spectrum]

Abyss;258298 said:

... the Refugim was well hidden and attached to Starvald Demelain somehow, they couldn't just stroll in from Leth (even tho QB/Trull/Onrack seemed to do just that via some Imass memory warren...), so they needed a gate. ...

They didn't "just" walk in. Remember earlier in the book where Shadowthrone bargained with Menandore (I think) for access to Starvald Demelain?

james9700;273329 said:

Clip is nothing of the sort. The way he got lit up by Trull's spear, who would want him as one, anyway?

Well, Trull Sengar is pretty badass near the end. He holds his own, at least for a while, against Icarium, and later Silchas Ruin.

[MTS]

Spectrum;284187 said:

Well, Trull Sengar is pretty badass near the end. He holds his own, at least for a while, against Icarium, and later Silchas Ruin.

Trull was the knight of shadow. Clip is some wimpy "MS" who wants to take on Rake for not being a god to his people. of course Trull is gonna beat Clip. nobody can take on Trull. in fact, i would not be surprised if Trull Sengar was resurrected and killed Rake. he's just THAT good with the spear.

*has a thought* i wonder how Trull would match up against some Seguleh...or Karsa? now that would be a good fight.

[Aptorian]

how do you block 200 punds of rock swung at you with a spear?

[MTS]

lol not saying he'd win it'd just be good to see if anyone besides Icarium could stand up to Karsa before being chopped into little kindling. because trull has stood down some pretty fearsome foes. and he doesnt have to necessarily block it head on, although trying to parry and/or dodge a six/seven foot sword would be a challenge, to say the least...

[Silencer]

@Toblakai - that would be a waste of the pages, especially if it was a straight-up fight. Clip would get walked all over. Then eaten. Twice.

Trull is good, but he's not the best warrior out there. Silchas did beat him to start with. Icarium eventually beats everyone, unless he gets knocked unconscious. We haven't really seen Trull fight anyone else. Against Rake? Who is probably better than Silchas.....

Rake might die. But if so, he will do it with full knowledge of how and with a reason - there won't be any "with a shocked look on his face" shit.

[Tattooed Hand]

I have to say that it was pretty satisfying to see Trull beat the crap out of Clip. He's like a back handed, annoying teenager with entirely too much at his disposal. He's like 19, right? Maybe clip just needs something else to keep him busy, like a girlfriend.

[SiriusL]

Regarding Clip's gate to KG...I wish my books weren't packed.

I thought there was some deception about their trip through KG to SD. Wasn't there some discussion about how it wasn't actually dark, just that Clip and/or Silchas made it that way for some sort of effect?

I have no doubt that Clip's rings do create gates, but I don't recall being convinced that they actually lead to Kurald Galain.

Moreover, regarding gates, I think there are two different classes of gates. In MoI, Korlat takes WJ through KG, and it's implied that they had done it before. I think a sorcerer can open a gate to a warren, but it's not the true Gate. I'm not sure I understand the nuances, though. There certainly seemed to be a true Gate between the Nascent/Hood's Realm area and Kurald Thryllan (see HoC with Trull and Onrack). It was fixed, and required a lot of power and ritual to open.

[Mentalist]

I think the thing was, when Korlat opened the gate, it was to the part of KG that was imposed onto that part of Wu/Burn, whereas in the case of Clip+ co, they actually moved into the depths of KG...

[Venerus]

There's also all the talk of mages "wrapping their warrens around them" and then getting exhausted/near otataral and have to "drop" their warrens (ex: Tattersail in GotM w/Bellurdan, or Kulp trying to "wrap" Meanas around Heboric and Felisin in DHG).

Gates, on the other hand, seem to allow anyone entry to a warren with no special mage present. And, denizens of warrens don't just drop out onto Wu when otataral is nearby, the way mages do.

It seems like some mages can make mini-gates/temporary gates/tears straight through warrens without the wrapping thing, like Olar Ethil or the Kulp crew in DHG.

I think, in general, it's an issue of actually being in a warren, like a native to that place, versus just having the warren bleb out around the person.

[Gwynn ap Nudd]

SiriusL;288003 said:

Regarding Clip's gate to KG...I wish my books weren't packed.

I thought there was some deception about their trip through KG to SD. Wasn't there some discussion about how it wasn't actually dark, just that Clip and/or Silchas made it that way for some sort of effect?

It was the other way around. It was light during the trip through KG. Udinaas noted that the creatures living there were blind and it was then admitted by Silchas/Clip that the light was not a normal circumstance in the realm.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Gwynn ap Nudd;288080 said:

It was the other way around. It was light during the trip through KG. Udinaas noted that the creatures living there were blind and it was then admitted by Silchas/Clip that the light was not a normal circumstance in the realm.

Perhaps there was light because of KG's weakness on Lether, therefore letting in light. Sounds kinda iffy though....

Silchas Ruin made reference to that, in RG.

[Sinisdar Toste]

the path of light in KG is a "gift" from father light, as clip puts it, and he calls it kurald liosan, this got me thinkin, maybe KL is the lighted highway in darkness and Kurald Thyrllan is the actual elder warren of light.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Sinisdar Toste;288257 said:

the path of light in KG is a "gift" from father light, as clip puts it, and he calls it kurald liosan, this got me thinkin, maybe KL is the lighted highway in darkness and Kurald Thyrllan is the actual elder warren of light.

What, you saying there's a path of dark through KL?

[Venerus]

Ain said:

What, you saying there's a path of dark through KL?

Exactly the opposite, actually. Toste is saying there's a path of light through KG. There's some basis for it -- KG "relented" to Light/the coming of Light, to give one example.

Why you would assume the converse is beyond me -- we've never heard of Light being infiltrated by Dark.

[Sinisdar Toste]

right Ven, theres no vice versa, and what i mean is that KL is the path of light through KG, and Kurald Thyrllan is the elder warren of light. dont forget that both kurald liosan and kurald thyrllan have been mentioned. i dont have HoC on me right now, but is someone wants to look up the passage with the liosan, what warren is it that they're returning to?

[D'rek]

Quotes from HoC:

Onrack said:

The Tiste Liosan. Kurald Thyrllan - this is the name they give their warren. Seneschal Jorrude is not a sorceror. He is a warrior-priest.

Onrack said:

The seneschal spoke of their own hunt. In pursuit of trespassers who crossed through their fiery warren. But these trespassers are not the renegades we hunt. Kurald Thyrllan is not a sealed warren. Indeed it lies close to our own Tellan - for Tellan draws from it. Fire is life and life is fire. Fire is the war against the cold, the slayer of ice. It is our salvation. Bonecasters have made use of Kurald Thyrllan. Probably, others have as well. That such incursions should prove cause for enmity among the Liosan was never considered. For it seemed there were no Tiste Liosan.

Onrack said:

The turning of Tellann succeeded in driving all awareness from the seneschal. They were entirely unprepared. Ibra Gholan, Olar Shayn and Haran Epal walked into the warren of Kurald Thyrllan.

So, from quote #2 we get that KT is supposely fiery, relatively empty and is certainly not sealed. This seems to accord well with the warren that the T'lan Imass go into, as well as where Pearl and Lostara visit later. Contrast this with the warren from which emerge the Liosan, which is populated and sealed, and it would seem that the Liosan are residing in a warren other then KT, which may or may not be KL.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Venerus;288466 said:

Exactly the opposite, actually. Toste is saying there's a path of light through KG. There's some basis for it -- KG "relented" to Light/the coming of Light, to give one example.

Why you would assume the converse is beyond me -- we've never heard of Light being infiltrated by Dark.

I believe in equality. Coz I'm fucking awesome.