[Iconik]

After doing some research, it's widely known that one of the tricks SE uses in GotM (I don't know whether he does this in later books as I've only just begun reading DG) is painting everything in deep shades of gray. It's very difficult to discern who is bad and who is good. I like that strategy. Keeps me hanging on and allows me to fall in love with the characters on more than one level.

Without giving TOO much away (don't want to spoil things) list all the major players in GotM and whether you think they were outright bad guys or good guys. Some characters, like Sorry, will be easy but, characters like Rake confuse the hell out of me.

Go!

[Aptorian]

This is an easy question. There are no bad guys or good guys in Eriksons writting. There's just people who do good and bad things.

[Mcflury]

honoustly, it's as you said... they're all grey (especially in GotM as far as I can remember) Later on in the series you'll find some people who aren't really that grey at all, and tend to be more black than anything else, but even they have white spots

but just to do you some pleasure:
Crokus: White
Crokus' uncle (forgot the name): white
Baruk: White
Ganoes Paran: White
Rake: very grey idd
Lorn: black
tool: white
the evil dude they try to spawn (raest iirc): black
the bridgeburners: white
tattersail: white
harilock: black
kruppe: white
col: white
mallick rel: grey

that's about the guys I can think off right now... but don't look too much at the colouring scheme, they're all very grey actually Just keep on reading and you'll find out more about all of them (well, most of them anyways)

[Dancer+]

Mcflury;250486 said:

honoustly, it's as you said... they're all grey (especially in GotM as far as I can remember) Later on in the series you'll find some people who aren't really that grey at all, and tend to be more black than anything else, but even they have white spots

but just to do you some pleasure:
Crokus: White
Crokus' uncle (forgot the name): white
Baruk: White
Ganoes Paran: White
Rake: very grey idd
Lorn: black
tool: white
the evil dude they try to spawn (raest iirc): black
the bridgeburners: white
tattersail: white
harilock: black
kruppe: white
col: white
mallick rel: grey

that's about the guys I can think off right now... but don't look too much at the colouring scheme, they're all very grey actually Just keep on reading and you'll find out more about all of them (well, most of them anyways)

How is Lorn black? She was loyal and devoted and don't tell me you weren't sorry for her when she fought the Crimson Guard guy.

[Iconik]

I'm confused about this talk of Lorn being "white". She aided in releasing a beast with enough power to level a city by itself. She was also a lapdog of a pretty "black" Empress. By association alone, Lorn is more "black" than anything else.

I did feel sorry for her but not when she was cut down. I felt she got what she deserved. I felt more sorry for her when she began crying at all the loss. I kind of compare her with General Lee of the US Civil War. Sure, in my opinion, he was on the wrong side but he wasn't a terrible human being. He was compassionate, felt horrible about the loss of his men, shouldered all the loss of his troops and even took the blame for the South's eventual surrender. But, he wasn't EVIL like many commanders that generally fight for the "wrong" side.

Paran is very "white". His wanting to kill Lorn is also a good example of how Lorn was more on the "bad" side. I look at him as Lincoln. The Empress as Davis, and Lorn as Lee.

Funny analogy...but it makes sense to me.

[Aptorian]

I think the problem you have is that you, apparently? haven't read passed GotM. A lot of things become more clear and you learn to see the charcters in a different light.

As for the Adjunct to me, releasing the Tyrant, as insane as it really was to do that, it's no worse than, say being the pilot that dropped the bombs over hiroshima and nagasagi. She's a soldier and a government agent. It's what she signed up for. If a couple of thousand people die so that the empire can secure its position and win the continent, tough shit.

[Folken]

yes lets keep it all out of this forum;) Thank u.

Apt's responses are appropriate. Read on and you will be able to make your judgments on the characters. Most of the characters you will come across are grey, there are very very few bad or good characters. GotM is just a glimpse and you might end up changing your perception of some as you read on.

[Aptorian]

Brilliant. And yes it was terrible when Timmy fell down the well in MoI.

It gets worse later but the only person I can think of that really is black in GotM is Raest.

Also Kallor, but for reasons that will become obvious in the next books.

[Iconik]

I'm just trying to spark a bit of conversation as it pertains to GotM. All the ambiguity and shades of gray are what made GotM so good to me so that's the kick I'm currently on.

[mob16151]

Just dont try to base your timeline or anything off Gotm and youll be good also dont be surprised later on if you go but in Gotm they said just warnin ya .

[Folken]

I deeply love you all...but I deleted those previous posts for a reason. There were spoiler tags in them as well. Don't bring up characters and their situations from other books. I am not trying to stop discussion here, you can easily have one talking about characters from a Gardens POV.

[Dolorous Menhir]

This is an interesting exercise. Let's see.

Dujek Onearm: Great guy, but quite clearly willing to kill a great deal of innocent people if it will serve his aims in war (for example, the plan to mine Darujhistan and cause huge civilian casualties even though they weren't really interested in conquering it for the Empire). Grey.

Anomander Rake: Coolness personified. But he's not a moral judgment kind of guy. If Rake had to kill some newborn puppies, he'd do it. Grey.

Whiskeyjack: see Dujek. Grey (goes with his appearance too).

Ganoes Paran: Lots of depth - an uppity noble who is trying to succeed independently of his background. He's ambitious and brave, but is he really "good"? And does he do anything really "bad"? Light grey.

Adjunct Lorn: Gets some sympathy with the ruined childhood and the way she's presented as an ok person, really. On the other hand, she's the willing instrument of an Empire that doesn't get portrayed in a very good light. Grey.

Raest: Well, he's an ancient power hungry despot, 100% bent on dominating everything around him. I can't think of an upside to Raest, so I'm going with Black even though he was a great character and I don't like to do it.

Mammot: Kindly old man, who we only saw through the viewpoint of his moronic nephew before his unfortunate Jaghut-possession and death by Moranth munition. Going to go with White.

Baruk: Seems like a pretty good guy. Benevolent behind-the-scenes ruler type, best interests of the city at heart, etc. Going with White.

Turban Orr: No redeeming features. Black.

Simtal: see above. Black.

Coll: lovable drunk with a great sob story and the ability to befriend almost anyone he meets (except the Adjunct. And his wife). White.

Crokus: dull, inoffensive, stupid, peeping tom. As Black as the darkest night.

Kruppe: White, no explanation needed.

Circle Breaker: courageous spy, and his dark activities go as far as eavesdropping and occasionally switching shifts. White.

Tayschrenn: Definitely gets a bad rap, but his private conversation with Lorn seemed to show a different side. Grey.

Tattersail: Again a likable character, but any member of the Malazan military is going to have a lot of atrocities haunting their dreams. Grey.

That's enough for now.

[Iconik]

Agree with all of them except for Crokus.

You must have something personal against this guy. Hehe.

[Aptorian]

Cotillion: Black, is out to destroy the empire, posses small girls, destroys islands, etc.

Ammanas: Black, see above.

[Dancer+]

K'rul: good guy, plays a part in attempting to destroy Raest. White.

Rallick Nom: strong moral principles and determined, his feat against Orr was great. He has to be grey because of his assassin nature, but I think it is a light grey.

Ocelot: "... his narrow, pitted face twisted into its habitual scowl." No redeeming qualities, black.

The fisher girl, Apsalar: victim of a horrible possession, sweet and innocent. Has to be white.

These are a few additional ones.

[Mcflury]

Dancer;250542 said:

How is Lorn black? She was loyal and devoted and don't tell me you weren't sorry for her when she fought the Crimson Guard guy.

honoustly? I liked it alot, when she fought the crimson guard guy, and she just wasn't good enough to basically stop all of his attacks, but was good enough to stop some, and thus made sure she died rather slowly... Very poetic to me, and thus I liked it... I didn't really felt sorry for Lorn though (yes, I'm a bad person, I know :'( )

[Aptorian]

The Wax witch: Very White.

Tool: grey?

[Iconik]

What's up with Tool anyway? The "guy" seemed nice enough in his conversations with Lorn.

I must of missed the part that explained why he was taking part in releasing Raest. Was it because he HAD to (oathsworn to Lorn so to speak) or was just a helpful guy!?

[Dancer+]

He knew the act had to happen one way or the other, I believe. The only bit I really remember is he did it because he was clanless, and the Jaghut Tyrant wouldn't try to possess him and even if he did he wouldn't have access to the other clan members.

[Folken]

Iconik - me thinks you need a reread. Go back read it again SLOWLY instead of ripping through it lol. To have missed everything about Coll means you probably missed a crap load more. Coll was all things considered featured heavily in the story. So my suggestion is that you go back and read it again, who knows what else you might have missed.