[wintermute]

In MoI Tool was barely defeated by Mok. However, that was while he was undead. It was also mentioned in MoI that the K'chain Che'mal hunters were slower because they were undead. So my question is whether Tool has received a speed boost, and if he has, whether it's enough to beat Mok. Any ideas?

[Ain't_It_Just_]

wintermute;249472 said:

In MoI Tool was barely defeated by Mok. However, that was while he was undead. It was also mentioned in MoI that the K'chain Che'mal hunters were slower because they were undead. So my question is whether Tool has received a speed boost, and if he has, whether it's enough to beat Mok. Any ideas?

This belongs in the MoI forum, methinks...

On topic, Tool has beaten Mok before, so I doubt there will be any resulting difference.

[Optimus Prime]

Tool lost to Mok didn't he?

I say Tool, if he gets a speed increase from being alive...would win...it was a close thing earlier.

[Venerus]

Does he still have the power of the Tellann warren fused to him? Even regular Imass are/were crazy strong after the Tellann ritual -- the ritual made them much more powerful, seems to be the implication. Without it...seems like Tool might not be as crazy awesome. I don't think the KC went through an Imass-like warren-fusing before they were brought back.

[Candybars]

wintermute;249472 said:

In MoI Tool was barely defeated by Mok. However, that was while he was undead. It was also mentioned in MoI that the K'chain Che'mal hunters were slower because they were undead. So my question is whether Tool has received a speed boost, and if he has, whether it's enough to beat Mok. Any ideas?

This is an interesting question...

On one hand, yes Tool was probably a little slower due to being undead. However, on the other giant hand, he was undead and gained immeasurable benefits from that condition. Turn into dust, no problem, strength boost, yes sir.

So, it really depends on whether or not you think that his +speed is enough to make up for the benefits that he lost.

Personally I feel that Mok still gets the win. He is the Segulah 3rd, and that is only due to some politicing by the 1st or he would be ranked higher.

But as Abyss would likely point out, it doesn't really matter... Wolverine FTW!

[Kalahinen]

Tool might have a chance for victory if he used weapons better fitting for a duel against a warrior using twin swords. With his current two-handed sword, Tool would be chopped in pieces in close-quarter combat...his weapon is clumsy and slower than Mok's. With shorter combat weapons Tool would be on equal footing with Mok. His two-handed sword is after all partly ritualistic...as he was the First Sword of the Empire once. This is my opinion (as a practitioner of escrima).

[Veilside]

Kalahinen;249696 said:

Tool might have a chance for victory if he used weapons better fitting for a duel against a warrior using twin swords. With his current two-handed sword, Tool would be chopped in pieces in close-quarter combat...his weapon is clumsy and slower than Mok's. With shorter combat weapons Tool would be on equal footing with Mok. His two-handed sword is after all partly ritualistic...as he was the First Sword of the Empire once. This is my opinion (as a practitioner of escrima).

You really can't make the assumption that his sword is slow and clumsy as there's no information regarding that whatsoever.

I think Mok would win, it was hardly a closely fought duel and Mok was clearly kicking Tools arse. Hell, Tool gets disarmed in the fight so I doubt he'd fare any better in his present state.

[Mcflury]

about the two handed sword not being fast enough: how about Karsa's fight against the seguleh? That seguleh was fast, she used twin swords, karsa used two handed sword... karsa broke her wrists and won... all by mere speed (and yes, we're talking about karsa... but if karsa can fight at such a speed, then certainly tool could too)

[Dancer+]

The post above the one above mine fails to recognise a few points, and makes an unusual interpretation of the first fight.

I won't comment further than this. Apart from if Tool had two weapons instead of one he would probably win. Someone, with equal skill, with two swords has a vast advantage over one with only one - it's a proven assumption.

[Candybars]

Mcflury;249708 said:

about the two handed sword not being fast enough: how about Karsa's fight against the seguleh? That seguleh was fast, she used twin swords, karsa used two handed sword... karsa broke her wrists and won... all by mere speed (and yes, we're talking about karsa... but if karsa can fight at such a speed, then certainly tool could too)

Ummm, I am not sure that this is a logical assumption. Karsa is clearly "something else". They are not similar in any way, except that Tool is now alive also. You cannot say that since an apple is red and a fruit, that an orange must be red also since it is also a fruit.

[Mcflury]

yes, someone fighting a person with twin swords using twin swords himself would idd do better than using a long sword, but that doesn't mean if the person uses the long sword against someone with twin swords he'll lose...

I was just pointing out tool wouldn't lose just because he uses a two handed sword, since there are dudes that actually can win that way, so why wouldn't tool?

And I don't get where my post fails ro recognise anything Dancer, or did you perhaps mean Veilside's post?

[Dancer+]

I meant Veilside's.

Your post was fine, I agree with you. My substantiated evidence for tool doing better with two weapons is, he was always on the defensive because he had to ward off two sets of blows. With a speed regeneration and two weapons he wouldn't likely be in the same position as last time. My main problem is Veilsides comment about Tool being disarmed last time so he wouldn't stand a chance this time, I cannot properly understand the logic.

[Veilside]

Dancer;249719 said:

I meant Veilside's.

Your post was fine, I agree with you. My substantiated evidence for tool doing better with two weapons is, he was always on the defensive because he had to ward off two sets of blows. With a speed regeneration and two weapons he wouldn't likely be in the same position as last time. My main problem is Veilsides comment about Tool being disarmed last time so he wouldn't stand a chance this time, I cannot properly understand the logic.

What I meant is that if he can be disarmed when he's undead, he's not likely to fare any better when he's alive.

We're also ignoring the fact that in the fight before Mok, he was clearly taking a lot of hits that would kill a normal human, and presumably you can make the rather safe assumption that Tool was ignoring hits from Mok that only did glancing damage to his undead frame, but would quickly kill a person that's "alive". So I think if anything Tool would be defeated with much more ease by Mok.

As far as the two swords thing, I don't think it'd be that much of an advantage. The level of coordination required to fight effectively with two swords must be extreme and you can't just simply hack one after the other with them, granted, this is a fantasy book but if you look at any sort of "dual wielding" in various martial arts, they're no more effective than single sword techniques.

[Dancer+]

That assumption is grounded that Tool is an ordinary warrior, I agree with your point that normally "duel wielding" would not necessarily be an advantage over singular sword styles because of the coordination and skill penalties. However Tool was and is the First Sword of an entire race, his skill and knowledge of blows is likely second to few. His coordination cannot be faulted with any reference to the books. It is perhaps ary to suggest Tool could not control the duel wielding techniques. It was once said the First Sword had no equal. (I could bring in many other comparisons but I will not)

The differing weapons lean towards different approaches, in one-on-one combat someone duel wielding has the overall advantage especially when the other has only one sword (and no shield) Mok was only able to get an advantage from my observations from speed and his choice of weapons. These two single-assets meant he was able to press an attacking situation to the end. Can we argue that Mok is more skillful than Tool? I'd find it very difficult to justify this stance.

Quote

We're also ignoring the fact that in the fight before Mok, he was clearly taking a lot of hits that would kill a normal human, and presumably you can make the rather safe assumption that Tool was ignoring hits from Mok that only did glancing damage to his undead frame, but would quickly kill a person that's "alive". So I think if anything Tool would be defeated with much more ease by Mok.

As to this point, Tool continued to take the damage because he could. When you can take the damage you will inevitably press an agressive and reckless strategy. Yet again this situation has changed, to make a correct analysis of events we need to isolate the factors that have changed. This flaw is just a minor version of criticising Raest's ability to kill because a normal "living" human would die from the damages he took from the dragons. Raest would never beat Silanah because if he was living he'd be dead.

Basically my point lies in the fact Mok's two greatest advantages and complete strategy have been compromised now. If we are to assume that Tool is in fact faster in his living form than undead form which is only a reasonable assumption.

Tool once knew no equal, apparently. The Seguleh aren't even that talented in the grand complexity of things. Karsa could stomp out the first probably, given his total demolition of thirteen. I find it hard to believe that in Tool's time there were no TTT that had Karsa's strength and skills but he was still considered unparrelled. Unfortunately my comment rests on a tenuous one from GotM. However all is not lost.

[Kalahinen]

Some pondering over (sword)fighting:

- the two-handed sword's greatest advantages lie in the reach and the weight...a useful tool for an infantryman against a horsewarrior, also used to hack into pikemen-formations
- however, the advantages quickly become disadvantages when entering close-combat...the size and weight make it clumsier and slower than smaller weapons...if the opponent manages to get to trapping range the two-handed sword is quite useless
- so, for a wielder of a zweihänder to keep the distance would me vital, unless he himself would try to enter to trapping to grappling, and discapacitate the opponents swords

Granted, these are fantasy-fiction, but still we can only perceive these from the footing that our own reality has granted, if any reasonable debate is to be made.

[Venerus]

Dancer;249746 said:

Basically my point lies in the fact Mok's two greatest advantages and complete strategy have been compromised now. If we are to assume that Tool is in fact faster in his living form than undead form which is only a reasonable assumption.

Why, exactly, is it a reasonable assumption that Tool would be faster living than dead? Because the KC were? It has been made explicit that the Tellann ritual gave the Imass great power. No such mention is made of the KC and their undeath.

Dancer;249746 said:

Tool once knew no equal, apparently.

This statement doesn't bear much epistemological fruit, unfortunately. It's not like the Imass sought out every single warrior they could find and brought him or her to Tool. I'm fairly certain, for instance, that Tool never fought Icarium. Not knowing any equal isn't the same as knowing you're better than everyone else. The most we can make of that quote is that if it is true, he's just never lost a direct challenge.

Dancer;249746 said:

The Seguleh aren't even that talented in the grand complexity of things. Karsa could stomp out the first probably, given his total demolition of thirteen. I find it hard to believe that in Tool's time there were no TTT that had Karsa's strength and skills but he was still considered unparrelled. Unfortunately my comment rests on a tenuous one from GotM. However all is not lost.

The Seguleh aren't that talented? They've been tested against various ascendants and the like, they're clearly very talented, on any scheme. Karsa might be able to "stomp out the first" but right now we 1. Have no idea how that matchup would go and 2. Karsa is his own deal, unique across the ages. He shocks nearly every ancient and ascendant power he meets -- he's unusual. Another TTT like Karsa is a pretty tall order -- you can't just throw out a theory about there being one like that without backup. Especially because when Icarium saved their bloodline as referred to in HoC, it sounds like the Teblor were originally peaceful and did not enjoy fighting and murdering (there's a reference to mixing blood being rare because it involved/required violence, implying violence itself was rare).

All that being said, beating thirteen... how does that relate to fighting the first? Tool had no problem with Senu and Thurule, but Mok beat him. Rake made it to 7th and had to stop. Clearly there's a difference in skill and ability between 13 and 3, or 13 and 1. Substantial enough that beating 9 doesn't even mean beating 7 will go well, let alone a jump in 12 ranks.

And, as a final note, although we have no idea what Tool's status is like as a human, we know for a fact that Mok is getting stronger all the time. K'rul says exactly that to Envy -- the first is concerned because Mok is becoming something fierce; there's some comment about how Mok's skills and abilities continue to develop.





annnnnnnd done. Yay writing a lot about a discussion on a fictional encounter!

[Mulch]

I love these threads...... "my once undead now alive warrior can beat your alive and skillful warrior"............

[Kalahinen]

Kallor was also described as a warrior without an equal...and he might have been.

[Optimus Prime]

I still hold to the theory that there is something else besides his sword skill that makes Kallor dangerous. We just don't know it yet. Hopefully it will be revealed in TtH.

There is always the description of T'lan Imass "creaking" and "shuffling"...which always gives me the idea that they are slow (and it is an effort for them to speed up) until they fight.

I'd say Tool is faster now...but who can say? He was fast when he was T'lan....but other times some of the T'lan come off as being awkward.

[Aptorian]

Kalahinen;249856 said:

Kallor was also described as a warrior without an equal...and he might have been.

Consider that Dessimbelakis was around in these times. But of course Kallor was mortal and Dessim probably not.