[Grief]

Raest obviously fears K'rul, so its fair enough to say that K'rul>Raest. Draconus and K'rul seem around equal.
Rake>Draconus=K'rul>Raest.

Rake also seems more powerful than K'rul.

[Dancer+]

Grief, on Oct 12 2008, 12:49 PM, said:

I would say most beings with enough power could wake burn. Just attack the earth.
The escape wasn't exactly a power thing, he just had to take over a midling scholar. Difficult? No.
Soletaken dragons are generally weaker than pure, unless theyn are powerful ascendants such as osserc etc.
The five, together had around the power of silanah, if not less. That amounts to around 2 pure dragons.

Spoiler

Rake took down, at once, at least three.

Enslaving a continent? Well,

Kallor manages that, and he's not even magical.
Gothos, I would say, is

stronger than Raest. Gothos, I would also say, is not as strong as

Rake.
Rake, we are told, can kill azath. Raest, and Gothos, both fail in

this, although Gothos perhaps by choice

.

Spoiler

You are wrong, Caladan Brood's hammer was specifically designed to wake up Burn

because there was not an easily accessable method for a responsible personage to

do so otherwise. The hammer would cause a great quantity of pain so this is not

stopping one of the good guys inflicting the pain to wake Burn up (i.e. Rake,

who has fought with Brood over the future of the hammer many times throughout

the millenia). There is no literary evidence to suggest that another being could

wake up Burn in all of the series (that I'm aware).

Mammot was a High Mage and part of the Torrud Cabal although this is beside the point, he is so far below Raest's power levels that it doesn't matter. You're just twisting words to convey your point to a greater extent. The point is he escaped because of his resourcefulness and power to overcome, and break through the boundaries of, Kruppe's dream.

Again, Raest fought all of them WITHOUT his finnest and was not defeated, the dream sequence had to be invoked by K'rul and Kruppe to stop him from proceeding any further which they failed with anyway. Raest was not stopped by the five Dragons so we cannot say exactly what his limits would have been.

Spoiler

Kallor did not manage to enslave a continent. He ruled a continent and then

destroyed it (with what we think were KCCM weapons). You have no evidence that

Gothos is more powerful than Raest, Gothos froze a continent after weeks of

ritual Raest is said to have the power to 'destroy' the continent (it does not

mention the time period or extent). I see no evidence suggesting Gothos is more

powerful than Raest. Or that Rake is more powerful than Gothos for that matter.

If you can provide, hard and relatively conclusive, literary evidence to support

your theory then I may concede (I've found none, that I can remember, in my

reads.)

Raest failed to destroy an Azath? When did this happen? Who said Rake could destroy an Azath? This is perhaps unimportant because I know that he could because [RotCG spoilers]

Spoiler

Osserc, Rake's slight inferior, destroyed an Azath but almost destroyed himself in the process

. [rest of the series spoiler]

Spoiler

Gothos never failed in destroying an Azath, he chose to become imprisoned. This is explicitely stated. The only two we know of that have destroyed an Azath are Osserc and Icarium.

And if you're suggesting that because they are imprisoned they would be unable to destory the Azath externally then you are treading on thin ice, the mechanics of the Azath are such that someone couldn't destroy it from the inside (see Silchas Ruin - Rake's more draconic sibling).

BeLeG, on Oct 12 2008, 12:54 PM, said:

you're right, we dont have a clear answer
But we know that Rake has always strained himself.He enslaved at least 3 pureblood aspected Eleint so beating 4 soletaken Andii dragons and Silanah would not be a problem for him imho
I just cant see any of Raest's accomplishments surpassing those of Rake

I can however, and taking into account only GotM I can put a pretty good case forward. If you take into account the rest of the series you cannot see Rake losing (because of various writer interventions and needs)
Raest has never faced three pureblood aspected Eleint and we don't know the circumstances of Rake's victory, it's hard to come to any conclusions without evidence as such

Grief, on Oct 12 2008, 12:57 PM, said:

Raest obviously fears K'rul, so its fair enough to say that K'rul>Raest. Draconus and K'rul seem around equal.

Rake>Draconus=K'rul>Raest.

Rake also seems more powerful than K'rul.

This is a ridiculous logical argument
Draconus and K'rul are so different and operate in different ways, you can't really make the comparison. Personally I don't believe Raest was scared of K'rul, just disbelieving and I believe K'rul > Draconus for what it's worth (in terms of use and achievement). Rake defeated Draconus with the use of Dragnipur, if you believe he would have overcome the Suzerain of Dark without you would probably be mistaken. Raest's power does not lie in dreams, magical tricks or a sword which basically saves Rake the trouble of making a finishing blow on his opponents (it's a bit of a cheap device). It's in pure magical malevolence which could bring the world to the end (given the context of the series and the CG's infection.)
If we want to talk about swordplay [huge TtH spoilers]

Spoiler

then we cannot even suppose Rake to be better than Traveller, even in willpower because of the comment the Demon (?) made upon Traveller's will and being the most noticeable out of everyone there

Circumstances dictate victories and there is never an absolute order of 'power' or 'ability to beat others' as there is the rule called the 'Erikson'flip-flop' and the fact that different strategies, strengths and weaknesses are vital to outcomes.

If it makes Rake fans happy I've already conceded that SE wouldn't kill Rake in the series so he would be absolutely certain to win. As far as I'm concerned there are two ways to look at the argument.

[Grief]

Umm, Rake defeated Draconus with the use of dragnipur, against Draconus' will, while Draconus was wielding it(iirc). Since, as you stated, Dragnipur needs no finishing blow, that means Rake beat Draconus WITHOUT EVEN TAKING A HIT.
I think its pretty certain K'rul would take down Raest. If not, and he could beat him, then why not kill him in the dream. Kruppe and the bonecaster? K'rul etc are so far above them it would hardly make a difference. Instead, he ran away, only escaping because Mammot was stupid enough to go in soul to look for him.

Mild Series Spoilers:

Spoiler

"He very nearly killed us" From the eleint. We know that various forces we're trying to take over Emurlahn, and Rake stopped them. He bound them, I suspect because he wouldnt want to fuck with the warrens by killing aspected eleint, so held back and bound them.

It seems pretty certain that other people can wake up Burn. The hammer is basically Tennes. Tennes is not a massively powerful warren, and is not wielded by massively powerful beings, unlike SD, OP etc. So that means K'rul, Draconus, Rake, Gothos, etc, could all probably wake Burn, its just a matter of Raest being the only person stupid/irresponsible/evil, call it what you will, enough to actually do it. In the arguments you tell of, Rake has been against waking Burn, to give people more time, as we see MoI. If he wanted to wake Burn, he would probably just go ahead and do it.

Also, on the point of Rake beating Draconus:

Spoiler

Draconus could only beat Osserc when he was either distracted, or weakened. As we see him trying to take advantage of Ossercs weakness in RotCG. Also, of every Osserc/Anomandaris confrontation, we are not told of ONE that Osserc has came out the victor.

Spoiler

Gothos hints that he is at least as powerful, and probably more so. He also says that he respects only Rake of those he has ever met.

Edit: You're right about there being two ways to see the argument.

Theres the ways of "Rake would win" and there's the wrong way.

This post has been edited by Silencer: 13 October 2008 - 08:50 AM

[BeLeG]

WARNING POSSIBLE SPOILERS

Look,my point was that Raest hasnt done anything that Rake couldnt achieve.
Rake defeated pureblood Eleint,two Elder Gods(three if you count Ossric as Elder),a demon who was able to destroy D-stan, one Galayn Lord Soletaken...in GotM SE didnt want to reveal too much of Rake...on the other hand he wanted us to believe that the Jaghut Tyrant was the ultimate threat..you can call this also a writer's intervention(or need)


WARNING
TOLL THE HOUNDS SPOILER

Spoiler

Oh come on give Rake Vengeance and then see if Traveller can lift Dragnipur...then have them fight in speeds unimagined even for the hounds of shadow...be honest now,who do you think would be the winner?
Anyway Rake did "win" that fight so your comment makes no sense

Yes I am Rake's fanboy but I dont think he is omnipotent.Even if Raest was greater in terms of raw power Rake would find a way.Can u imagine anyone able to imprison Anomander Rake...twice?????

[Grief]

He's certainly not omnipotent, but neither is Raest.
Another problem is that these comparisons are between two very different characters.

Would Rake wake up burn? Unlikely.
Would Raest fight the Empire for other peoples cause completely? Unlikely.
Would Rake try to enslave a continent? Unlikely.

Just because they WOULDN'T doesnt mean that they COULDN'T. Although I doubt Raest could do some of the stuff Rake did.
Particularly

Spoiler

Getting Gothos' respect(though I doubt he would care), and standing alone against chaos, swordfighting DU, etc

Also, Raest seems quite a one-trick pony. Magically, he is massively powerful. Thats lovely. If you come up against someone able to counter that, who is more powerful, or at least equal, then it will probably come to blows. I would like to see more of how good Raest is with a weapon, because at close quarters, many people would anihilate him, from what we've seen.

[Dancer+]

Grief, on Oct 12 2008, 03:06 PM, said:

Umm, Rake defeated Draconus with the use of dragnipur, against Draconus' will, while Draconus was wielding it(iirc). Since, as you stated, Dragnipur needs no finishing blow, that means Rake beat Draconus WITHOUT EVEN TAKING A HIT.
I think its pretty certain K'rul would take down Raest. If not, and he could beat him, then why not kill him in the dream. Kruppe and the bonecaster? K'rul etc are so far above them it would hardly make a difference. Instead, he ran away, only escaping because Mammot was stupid enough to go in soul to look for him.

"He very nearly killed us" From the eleint. We know that various forces we're trying to take over Emurlahn, and Rake stopped them. He bound them, I suspect because he wouldnt want to fuck with the warrens by killing aspected eleint, so held back and bound them.

It seems pretty certain that other people can wake up Burn. The hammer is basically Tennes. Tennes is not a massively powerful warren, and is not wielded by massively powerful beings, unlike SD, OP etc. So that means K'rul, Draconus, Rake, Gothos, etc, could all probably wake Burn, its just a matter of Raest being the only person stupid/irresponsible/evil, call it what you will, enough to actually do it. In the arguments you tell of, Rake has been against waking Burn, to give people more time, as we see MoI. If he wanted to wake Burn, he would probably just go ahead and do it.

Also, on the point of Rake beating Draconus:

Spoiler

Draconus could only beat Osserc when he was either distracted, or weakened. As we see him trying to take advantage of Ossercs weakness in RotCG. Also, of every Osserc/Anomandaris confrontation, we are not told of ONE that Osserc has came out the victor.

Spoiler

Gothos hints that he is at least as powerful, and probably more so. He also says that he respects only Rake of those he has ever met.

Edit: You're right about there being two ways to see the argument.

Theres the ways of "Rake would win" and there's the wrong way.

You forget

Spoiler

Envy's betrayal of Draconus and the subsequent passing of hands of Dragnipur. Rake didn't need to avoid being hit with Dragnipur, he just had to punish Draconus for his carelessness.

As for why he didn't kill all of them in the dream world I thought that would be blantantly obvious, Kruppe could control/define the rules - it's his imagination. He just couldn't anticipate/stop Raest escaping. Why didn't K'rul, Kruppe and Tool kill Raest in the dream world if they were so powerful, there's always the opposite argument...even if it is an extremely poor one.

The hammer was designed by Burn, I don't know how you can even begin to suggest that Burn is weak or would hold no key to waking herself up. It's not as simple as Tennes is a weak warren and other warrens are more powerful so other magic users would easily be able to wake them up. You're taking tenuous steps, nowhere else in the series does it say that someone else could wake Burn.

Spoiler

Draconus could never track Osserc, it's different from not being able to defeat him.

We don't know if Gothos ever met Raest and I'd suspect that he wouldn't have respected his tyrannical urges, even conjuring up quotes that suggest Rake may have been better than Gothos is flawed as we have no evidence to suggest that Gothos is better than Raest and we certainly don't know the outcome of any battle between them without knowledge of their methods/true power levels.

Spoiler

As far as I see it: Top Jaghut Tyrant/Top KCCM matrons > Elder Gods. The KCCM kept the Elder Gods away from Wu.

And btw just to absolutely clarify; I'm not saying Raest would beat Rake but that Raest would have more raw magical power. Rake is "undefeatable"

BeLeG, on Oct 12 2008, 03:10 PM, said:

WARNING POSSIBLE SPOILERS

Look,my point was that Raest hasnt done anything that Rake couldnt achieve.
Rake defeated pureblood Eleint,two Elder Gods(three if you count Ossric as Elder),a demon who was able to destroy D-stan, one Galayn Lord Soletaken...in GotM SE didnt want to reveal too much of Rake...on the other hand he wanted us to believe that the Jaghut Tyrant was the ultimate threat..you can call this also a writer's intervention(or need)


WARNING
TOLL THE HOUNDS SPOILER

Spoiler

Oh come on give Rake Vengeance and then see if Traveller can lift Dragnipur...then have them fight in speeds unimagined even for the hounds of shadow...be honest now,who do you think would be the winner?
Anyway Rake did "win" that fight so your comment makes no sense

Yes I am Rake's fanboy but I dont think he is omnipotent.Even if Raest was greater in terms of raw power Rake would find a way.Can u imagine anyone able to imprison Anomander Rake...twice?????

Spoiler

Rake probably; how is this relevant? Rake is a seven foot tall powerhouse with hundreds of millenia to refine his muscles and a hundred millenia (?) to carry around Dragnipur. Traveller is a human thus most likely not over six feet, his style is effective because of his speed, grace, economical ability and will. There is no comparison between their strengths so it would be a bit of a hollow victory. However we don't know how Traveller would cope (it was said that Rake never had the true will to wield his own creation which is part of the reason he passed it over.) so Traveller has one foot above him in this respect.

Rake did not "win", he couldn't lose.

I can't imagine anyone being able to imprison Anomander Rake twice, he's too much of an authors favourite for that to happen ability-wise it's possible for anyone to be imprisoned twice (it just depends about whoand how many did said imprisoning).

[Grief]

Im afraid we do know Raest met Gothos.

Spoiler

"One of my more obnoxious offspring"-Gothos describing Raest. He goes on to hint that he is more powerful

.
The matrons had magical the power of their whole race. There were thousands of them, compared to a handful of elders. Ofc they could hold them off. Thats just sheer strength of numbers.
And it does say that other people could wake burn. Its stated Raest could simply by attacking the earth with magic. Well, losts of people could do that.
Also, Draconus could probably track Osserc fine. Same way Nimander could "find" silanah.

Also, in the case of Raw magical power, well, we dont know how the warrens work well.
However: Raest we only have evidence for being able to use OP.
Rake is described as being able to use a host of warrens. Same reasons K'rul would own him.

The jaghut tyrants are not equal to the matrons. It was only when the Jaghut as a race fought the K'Chain they escaped their opression. Matrons had the whole races power, it required the same from the jaghut to fight them.

[Dancer+]

Grief, on Oct 12 2008, 03:47 PM, said:

Im afraid we do know Raest met Gothos.

Spoiler

"One of my more obnoxious offspring"-Gothos describing Raest. He goes on to hint that he is more powerful

.
The matrons had magical the power of their whole race. There were thousands of them, compared to a handful of elders. Ofc they could hold them off. Thats just sheer strength of numbers.
And it does say that other people could wake burn. Its stated Raest could simply by attacking the earth with magic. Well, losts of people could do that.
Also, Draconus could probably track Osserc fine. Same way Nimander could "find" silanah.

Also, in the case of Raw magical power, well, we dont know how the warrens work well.
However: Raest we only have evidence for being able to use OP.
Rake is described as being able to use a host of warrens. Same reasons K'rul would own him.

The jaghut tyrants are not equal to the matrons. It was only when the Jaghut as a race fought the K'Chain they escaped their opression. Matrons had the whole races power, it required the same from the jaghut to fight them.

Evidence points to the contrary that Draconus could track Osserc down (to conclusion).

The point is not through the uniqueness of method but through the strength of said attack, no one else is stated to have the same appetite or strength for destruction. It is not explicitely stated, or in my opinion even hinted that it's a foregone conclusion that anyone else has the tools. We'll never know.

Rake can only use a few warrens, it doesn't give him a substantial advantage. Anyway, all of this is besides the point as we have no evidence that Rake can meld his warrens together or that it would have even more of an effect on Raest. We don't even know how Rake would deal with a magical assault (Silchas Ruin, the more draconic/magical of the two, didn't deal so well with

Spoiler

Quick Ben

.

Raest may have access to only one warren but he can manipulate it extremely well:
'The battle had laid waste to the hills, incinerating everything in the deadly clash of Warrens. And Raest had driven back the dragons. He'd listened to their cries of pain. Laughing, he'd flung dense clouds of earth and stone skyward to blind them. He ignited the air in the path of their flight. He filled clouds with fire. It was, he felt, good to be alive again.' Have we seen anything as creative with Rake? I think we're comparing pears and apples with Raest and Rake, they are somewhat different. Rake is certainly a better swordsmen, a smarter opponent and more prudent but it does not mean he is more magically inclined or outright powerful.

The crux of my argument lies in the thesis that Rake is not as magically strong as Raest. There's few evidences to the contrary.

PS You'll notice that the Jaghut were a reclusive race that fought alone for the most part, of course they were subject to domination. No Jaghut Tyrants ever fought a KCCM matron as the Tyrants did not become "real" until after the KCCM demise. It sounds as if you are arguing that they are equal with your last statements to be honest.

[Grief]

The jaghut Tyrants are just jaghut who have a lust for power. They are no stronger than another jaghut, just because of being a tyrant. The jaghut, some probably with the same strength as Raest, but thats unproveable, probably fought KCCM. How does \"The jaghut tyrants are not equal to the matrons\" sound like I am arguing they are equal? Wtf?

There is no evidence that Rake isnt as magically strong as Raest. They never even fought.

Spoiler

QB himself states that he is frightened of Rake, and later says(at least, iirc its him) that Rake has \"A host of warrens\" or somesuch.
More warrens is a substantial advantage. QB with 1 is not nearly as effacious as QB with 6.
Rake is most certainly equally creative. Thinking of how to hide Moons spawn etc. He is called a \"genius\" on multiple occasions. I dont think you can really get to that power level without large amounts of skill.

What evidence is there that Rake isnt as strong as him. He speaks of being able to defeat Raest, closely, as do many others. Those people DO NOT KNOW that Raest doesnt have his finnest.

Spoiler

Also, the dude fighting QB was being arrogant, underestimating, and frankly quite stupid. As well as the fact we are told he isnt as powerful as Rake, we dont know by how much.

In fact, if we\'re bringing in arguments like \"there\'s little evidence\", then, we\'ve never seen the power of his finnest. How do we know it would even boost his strength so greatly? People say so, thats how. The same way we are told Rake would beat him.

Spoiler

I\'m not sure where you\'re taking silchas being more magical from. More draconic, perhaps, but Rake is always described as the more powerful brother. Draconicness doesn\'t necessarily relate to power, because Rake could be stronger in KG, but again that goes into areas we have little knowledge on.

There\'s no way to know. They\'re too different, and we didnt see the fight. The information we have just isnt really enough. Maybe we will recieve more, and then I will pick this debate up again, but for now it is just opinion, and little factual evidence, so there really isnt much point continuing.

[Dancer+]

'Matrons had the whole races power, it required the same from the jaghut to fight them. ' You're stating that the two races are near enough equal, or at least the two races together constitute a fight.

There was a period of Jaghut evolution, they changed from subservient and inward looking to outward looking and lustful. It was said that 'they stepped out of the shadow of the KCCM only to rise to new levels'. We do know little about this time period however.

Spoiler

Rake is the more canny, smart and scary of the two. Although drinking more deeply from Tiam equates to bigger dragon, bigger rage and a greater access into the heart of darkness. You can argue with that if you like but it's been a proven "fact" on these forums for years - one you just don't go back to because it's been visited so much.
With Rake's creativity, your confusing my intent - he has the brains but not the execution to use fire, earth, stone and ice all at once. He employed someone else to hide Moon Spawn and we haven't really seen him use Magic except at Pale. You can't deny this. Despite my comments I agree Rake is completely and utterly superlative in so many ways, I'm not trying to argue he's not - he just cannot wake Burn or destroy continents from any of the literary evidence, his talents go far beyond that in certain respects ala TtH.

Those people do know Raest didn't have his Finnest - if Tool and Rake don't know whether Raest had his Finnest or not the plotline would be a bit faulty.

If you want my take on the situation, it equals:

Raest's magic > Rake's magic.
But there is no comparison between: Raest against Rake (swordmanship, brains, magic) + five dragons + K'rul/Kruppe/Tool/Baruk + Dragnipur. The latter combination would surely win. Raest would have been Dragnipur'd unless he used his non-existent unarrogant brain.

Anyway, thank you for your contributions. It's been fun but I'm utterly convinced about what I'm writing. I hope you can agree with what I've said because I'm not arguing Raest is more all-around, better, sexier or that he has a bigger penis than Anomander Rake (or Greymane) for that matter, I disagree with all of those

[Silencer]

OK - slow down here, guys.
Enough. Seriously. We're getting TTH and RotCG spoilers in the GotM forum, for crying out loud!

We know that Raest is a Jaghut Tyrant. We know they are insanely powerful. We know Rake is...well...insanely powerful. We know the author prefers Rake , however, the question of who would win is unanswered, and will be forever more.

[Dancer+]

Raest was one, if not the most, feared of the Tyrants.

I can edit out any spoilers if you wish, I was trying to keep it as cryptic as possible and spoiler where overtly possible but I didn't want the post to become a spoiler appearanced frenzy.

[Andirak]

I am tempted to throw digital bricks at your faces, guys! You drop hints here and there, it's maddening! To avoid the spoilers or not to, that is the question. On the one hand I am dying to know what the heck you are talking about, but I can't.
And stupid me, I have all the books, but since I had read up to book 4 I am refreshing my memory (on book 2 now) before tackling the rest.
Mmmm, a few one-nighters are in order if I want to catch up.

And I am a Rake fan. How can possibly be there any other type of fan?
Seriously, SE likes Rake?

[Silencer]

I had to edit half of BeLeG's post for the "Big Thing" in TTH, stated plainly, in no uncertain terms, for all to see.

Keep is spoilered, or don't say it, people!

I understand with this discussion that it's hard, but if it's going to be that difficult, I'll have to move it to the TTH forum.

It's OK, Dancer, I wasn't talking to you, particularly. I just think it's a bit inconsiderate of some people to be discussing TTH stuff in a GotM forum.

EDIT: And don't look, Andirak. You'll regret it for the rest of the series.

[BeLeG]

Silencer I didnt find the option to put the spoiler tag,I'm not familiar with the new forum
But I warned about major TTH spoilers so...anyway,thanks for fixing my post and I promise : no more spoilers!!!

[Dancer+]

No worries, as long as we all learn from our mistakes

To put spoiler tags on a post, do this: [ spoiler] SILENCER! [ /spoiler] without the two spaces before spoiler and /spoiler.
see:

Spoiler

SILENCER!

This post has been edited by Dancer: 13 October 2008 - 01:10 PM

[Silencer]

It's the same as the old forum.

[BeLeG]

ok I found it
thanks
is it really the same as the old forum? oh,I'm stupid