[Grief]

Rake. Raest is strong, but I doubt he could beat him.
As to the constant renewal through bodysnatching, I doubt it would work. For one, it seems to wekean him more than it gains him strength.
Also, Raest is Jaghut, and I reckon he can only wield OP. Whereas Rake is said to command a host of warrens at some point, MoI I think. He, at least, has KG, and SD.
And if it came down to close quarters, Rake would just get pwned.

And since abyss hasnt got here first, I suppose I should inform you that the answer is not actually wolverine, but yoshimitsu.

[Excellence]

Not to diaper the butt curves, but, ahem, moranth bombs are enhanced by magic usage.

Old Raest was a power plant of it. One good Hedge, and boom doesn't even describe it.

[Dancer+]

Cussers are a brillant anti-magic creation. You're forgetting that both Raest and Rake were power-plants of magical energy (Raest mainly) so they'd both be vulnerable.

I think Raest with his Finnest back would have beaten Rake. Raest was a demon fighter and feared by even a community of Jaghut. Whether Raest was overpowered or not is another matter, he was said to have the power to wake burn and to destroy the city; this power eludes the mighty Rake.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Hmmm... to be honest I think most Jaghuts(Tyrants and not) could pawn an Ascendant

[Dancer+]

Ascendancy is only something that is visited upon mortal races (the Andii are mortal).
I thought the Forkrul Assail and the Jaghut were immortal and beyond ascendancy. Most tyrants could beat an ascendant, and Raest was the tyrant they all feared.

[James]

I'm pretty sure that Raest was just a tyrant, i don't think it goes into too much detail in that area.

Power eludes Rake, haha, not necessarily, Raest's power is more of a shot-gun style, blow everything up and watch it burn, while Rake's seems more controlled, almost like a sniper.

Raest and Rake could still technically fight right since Raests in the Azath, or has it constrained him even if he were to "leave" for bit?

Jimms

[Dancer+]

You're stepping into dangerous spoiler territory Thus I will not elaborate any further.

[Silencer]

Yes, and that's the reason I think Rake would have beaten Raest. Think about it, Dancer. Given what we know about Rake now....

[Andirak]

Tool seemed to think Rake could beat Raest, and about Raest blowing the city, Rake did say that he could do it as well.
I thought Rake was avoiding fighting Raest at first, even though he did say he would do it if the situation called for it, then I realized he was saving himself for the demon lord.

[Dancer+]

Rake could have taken Raest before he regained his Finnest but with some difficulty. I'm sure someone explicitely states that with his finnest he would have become unstoppable.

[Silencer]

Unstoppable is a very loose term, Dancer.

He was, after all, stopped before. If a Cusser can take out his body, so can Rake's magic. Then...Dragnipur time.

[Grief]

If he was unstoppable with Finest, why was he entombed anyway. It's all a matter of perspective. Perhaps to said person, he would have been unstoppable. To Rake? No.

[Dancer+]

Because an entire Jaghut community, a few tyrants plus T'lan Imass converged on him as far as I can remember. There's a difference between multiple entities closing in and one.

What evidence can you give for a Rake victory with Raest fully restored? As I've said Raest believed he could wake Burn up if he desired, Rake does not have this ability as we can conclude with his and Brood's relationship. Raest's fractional power, without his Finnest, was still phenomonal (see the battle with the five dragons). Raest was overpowered in the context of the other books and Rake is sceptical he can beat Raest without Finnest - doesn't he say it would be close? It was stated Raest's power would be far greater with Finnest so surely this logical step would mean Rake would be even less sure/certain of his demise.

The Cusser took out Mammot's body not Raest's.

[Abyss]

There are phenomenally powerful individuals amongst the Jaghut, and Raest was one such. It took a bunch of Jaghut and clans of Imass to stop him and it seems most of those died in the process. Suffice it to say, he was a serious powerhouse. The fact that he took on the four Andii draconics and Silanah speaks volumes. Raest was powerful, even amngst Jaghut. It's not a GotMism. Rake seemed confident he could deal with Raest if he had to, but that goes to

Spoiler

Rake's phenomenal power level that we finally see in TtH, NOT to Raest's.

EDITTED to remove spoilers

- Abyss, btw, Wolverine would totally kick both their asses...

This post has been edited by Silencer: 13 October 2008 - 08:45 AM

[Dancer+]

Baruk stared at the Tiste Andii. 'Are you that certain you'll be able to destroy this Jaghut?'
'No. But when it is finished with us, it will have been much reduced.'

It's telling that Rake relied on the four Andii and Silanah to keep Raest preoccupied.

Tool's opinion on the matter: 'Such a being, should it escape our control, or defy our predictions, is capable of destroying this continent. It can enslave all living upon it, and it would do so if permitted.' He also comments that 'A Jaghut Tyrant is dangerous alone. A Jaghut Tyrant with an Imass Bone Caster at its side is unstoppable. They would challenge the gods, and they would kill most of them.'

I remember other quotes to further relate to Raest's power if he had got his Finnest back but I'm not exactly where they are in the book.

[Silencer]

Don't forget, Gothos respected Rake. The only one he DID respect.

Look at it this way, Rake kills gods. Raest needs a Bonecaster with him to kill gods. Who is more powerful?
Fact is, one stick with Dragnipur....it's over. It doesn't matter who, or what, you are.
Raest didn't kill ANY of the Andii or Silanah. Rake probably would have killed all of them. Admittedly, that was Raest without Finnest.


I admit, it is possible that Raest MAY have been able to beat Rake. But only WITH the Finnest. The Galayn Lord at the end of GotM was overpowered compared with the rest of the series - there is no way Rake would have struggled with it later on. So the scale of power is off. Same with the warrens - the entire mechanic changes.
And besides. It didn't happen. So we'll never know.

[BeLeG]

Lorn asked Tool if the Andii Lord could stop the Tyrant.
Tool replied that he could.
Tool's response is enough for me,end of the story.
Rake doesn't have Karsa's "I will pwn you all" kind of attitude

[Dancer+]

BeLeG, on Oct 12 2008, 12:11 PM, said:

Lorn asked Tool if the Andii Lord could stop the Tyrant.
Tool replied that he could.
Tool's response is enough for me,end of the story.
Rake doesn't have Karsa's "I will pwn you all" kind of attitude

We already know this, the whole running plan throughout these scenes are to not let Raest regain his Finnest. Rake > Raest without his Finnest.

Thus enter: 'Such a being, should it escape our control, or defy our predictions, is capable of destroying this continent. It can enslave all living upon it, and it would do so if permitted.'

The escape our control part points at the regain of his Finnest. That is the risk they must avoid at all costs. I will admit that Rake has a great equaliser in Dragnipur and has a lot more brains so he probably would come out on top (especially because SE loves Rake - and he couldn't die merely because of plot reasons) but Raest with his Finnest in terms of power is greater (he managed to fight through the five Dragons whilst wounding Burn at his merest whim and then escaped the ambush of an Elder God, the First Sword and Kruppe at a small sum of his power, is it so hard to extrapolate when he actually has tenfold that amount of power, or at least three or fourfold that power...?).

But I'll agree with all of you; Rake would have won.

This post has been edited by Bubba: 23 October 2008 - 02:43 AM

[Grief]

I would say most beings with enough power could wake burn. Just attack the earth.
The escape wasn't exactly a power thing, he just had to take over a midling scholar. Difficult? No.
Soletaken dragons are generally weaker than pure, unless theyn are powerful ascendants such as osserc etc.
The five, together had around the power of silanah, if not less. That amounts to around 2 pure dragons.

Rake took down, at once, at least three.

[BeLeG]

you're right, we dont have a clear answer

Spoiler

But we know that Rake has always strained himself.He enslaved at least 3

pureblood aspected Eleint so beating 4 soletaken Andii dragons and Silanah would

not be a problem for him imho

I just cant see any of Raest's accomplishments surpassing those of Rake