[Newbee]

I totally agree with battalion. If there isnt more to redmask them a big chuck of reapers gale feels to have been a waste.

[Dancer+]

Battalion;253261 said:

I agree with you. I thought he was the most pointless man I've ever read about in any book, ever. I just don't think he's dead:D

How did you come to that conclusion? Redmask did a lot for the progression arcs, just watch and see.

There are plenty of people with less point. People use superlatives too much.

[Mentalist]

Redmask gave us TOC.. 'nuf said

also, the Awl v. letherii war was cool, if tragic and with an unsatisfactorty conlusion...

[Aptorian]

I find it amusing that the title of the thread still hasn't been corrected.

Redmasks storylines do seem pointless, because the entire war between the Awl and the Letherii has to have ment something more than just introducing a couple of KCCM, wipe out the Grey Swords and Toc and annoucing the arrival of the Barghast. There's just no evidence that the entire thing wasn't just a convoluted storyline that went no where.

[Dancer+]

The title has been corrected now.

Why do they have to be pointless for these reasons? The story arc did do quite a bit anyhow and we still do not know the true extent of the plots essential nature.

[Aptorian]

Yes but that's the thing, right. Maybe it's just me, but, compared to the rest of Eriksons work the Awl war seemed like a really weak storyelement in RG.

What was it's overall purpose? If you deduct the introduction of the KCCM, Tocs philosophical mussings on this and that, some historical bits and the excuse for the barghast to begin a war on the letherii... what's left?

As a stand alone storyline, the Awl against the Letherii, what purpose is served by using two hundred pages on the mess? We already know from MT that the Letherii are evil, manipualative, militarily strong and damn good at what they do. We've already heard of half a dozen downtrodden people and various civilizations the letherii have destroyed. It's all there between the lines in MT. So what's the point of actually giving us the story of one of these countless repititions of Lether history?

I don't see any.

Normally, when Erikson writes a story, there's a hidden significance, there's slight of hand and devious subtely in the script. I saw none of that.

The KCCM story went no where, we got a lot of new questions and then the KCCM just ran away.

The Grey Swords story went now where, we don't know why the hearts were eaten, Toc died another pointless death, we don't know what Togg and Fancy were planning.

The Redmask story went no where, we just find out he's letherii, he made some kind of mess once, and there's a HUGE mystery surrounding his wherabouts for the past decade or so.

[Dancer+]

Aptorian;253451 said:

Normally, when Erikson writes a story, there's a hidden significance, there's slight of hand and devious subtely in the script. I saw none of that.

I agree to a certain extent but have faith. Erikson is not likely to waste 200 pages on a storyline that is heading nowhere unless he needed to pad the book out in general. Are there other signs of excessive padding? If there are then we can agree this storyline may be just another attempt at padding the work out. If not, I still would like to keep the faith on previous history.

We have little evidence for or against the pointlessness of the Redmask storyline, we have yet to see the most important part of the arc, in what way has it moved the storyline forward.

I agree but I hold doubts especially about the strength of your argument. Your point argues to too strong a degree about the pointlessness of the whole affair. I wait.

[Battalion]

Dancer;253402 said:

How did you come to that conclusion? Redmask did a lot for the progression arcs, just watch and see.

There are plenty of people with less point. People use superlatives too much.

I came to that conclusion quite easily: I thought he was the most pointless man I've ever read about it any book, ever.

[Dancer+]

I'll leave you to your randomly appearing unreasoned thoughts then I would give examples of other characters which are more pointless but my head is not a database of fantasy/sci-fi especially at the moment.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I found the Redmask character slightly bewildering as well. If you took his whole sub plot away from the story would it really make that much of a difference?

[Sinisdar Toste]

well the book would be a lot thinner, and this forum would be less a few hundred threads.

i believe that redmask was a precursor to the return of the KCCM

[MecnunK]

I wonder if the little wolf-girl has any more role to play..whose family was killed by Redmask/KCCM?

[Regaez]

When I read the part about Redmask's death - I reread it, and reread it and reread it... and eventually, I came up with a few ideas:

(whether they're accurate or not, I don't know. This is pure speculation, like the rest of this thread)


1. Redmask saw that he was going to lose. So, somehow Redmask swapped himself with another person, who donned the mask. The KCCM realised that Redmask was no longer leading them, and so killed the imposter one.

2. The same as above, but Redmask ordered the KCCM to kill the imposter he put in his place, before then escaping. He sacrificed the Awl in an attempt to rid the Letherii of one of it's best Commanders and army. It also would lead any survivors to believe he was killed, when in fact he wasn't.

3. The KCCM turned on Redmask because he lost their respect/didn't live up to expectations and Redmask either a) anticipated this and made a Letherii someone don the mask and thus escaping the KCCM or Redmask WAS killed, and was somebody we don't know about.


Again, these are probably filled with flaws, but are just some ideas for conclusions that I came to.

[MecnunK]

I am just at the part of red mask's death during my re-read.

I dont think he could have swapped himself with someone else given that its his POV just before he gets dissected like a carrot.

Toc remarks that "he must have failed them"..but how? He wasnt asking the KCm to follow him around? as per his very first POV in teh story where he seems unsure as to why the KCM accompany him so the KCm must have had their own expectations of him without his knowing what they are.

More interesting are his thoughts before the final battle.. He was still convinced of his victory..actually he was dleusional enough to believe in victory even in his final POV. But the interestintg bits are his thoughts about the elder he killed. I got a bit confused there because he also starts thinking of his father and his diapproval and then there is a mention of his hands being on his father's neck..so I am thinking did he kill his father and was disgraced much like he disgraced the awl leader before he took over the last tribe? Was this the terrible secret the elder knew? ..

We also know the elder confided to Toc that the redmask would betray them..but no reasoning as to why. He certainly did not seem like betraying them unless you count his delusional final battle with letherri forces where he himself got killed, as an indirect betrayel because his tactics failed.

then there is the suicide of his sister on return to the awl tribe..incest? another terrible secret?

but either way he seems pretty dead to me.. Torrent on the other hand is still alive and I wonder whether we will see some retrospection from him in future thus working out RM's mystery.

[Sinisdar Toste]

well tocs seems to believe that redmask was the KCCM first sword or summat, and the KCCM were smart enough to know when he was failing, aaaand thats how they deal with failure in their culture... could be, they are basically intelligent raptors.

but not intelligent enough to know that RM was just a dude in a mask............................weeeeellll maybe long tails werent very smart because of that hive thing.