[weaverbird05]

So, if Holds developed into Warrens (for the most part......sort of), could Bottle be accessing the power from the Warrens without ACTUALLY going trough the warren itself? So that while Holds are not really in use, he's still not necessarily accessing the power through the House/Warren? This is fascinating, but it makes my head hurt! Dang Steven Erikson, and his AMAZING twisted confusing world that I love!!

[Mentalist]

hmm
Holds + Houses are the imposition of Azath order onto magic. Holds--onto the Elder Warrens, Houses--largely onto the Paths (warrens made by K'rul)

bear in mind, a number of Paths don't have a corresponding House to them. However, the genral pattern "Elder Warrens - Holds" + "Paths - Houses" still stands.

[Venerus]

Kud's got it right.

From the Master of the Deck himself (although, happily enough, Aramala uses almost *exactly* the same phrases when talking to Karsa, which Karsa then regurgitates to 'Siballe in HoC: "That which falls may rise again. From wandering to Holds. From Holds to Houses").

Paran:

Quote

A soul...or a legion of souls...Before Houses there were Holds ... Both fixed, both stationary. Settled. Before settlement...there was wandering. House from Hold, Hold from...a gate in motion, ceaseless motion...A wagon, burdened beneath the countless souls sealing the gate into Dark...

From Draconus in MoI:

Quote

'Hear me, please. Before the Houses, there were Holds. Before Holds, there was wandering. Your own words, yes? But you were both right and wrong. Not wandering, but migration. A seasonal round—predictable, cyclical. What seemed aimless, random, was in truth fixed, bound to its own laws. A truth—a power—I failed to recognize.'

That means Holds are the result of binding up the cyclical migrations of Warren gates. Warrens predate Holds and Houses; Holds and Houses are the result of binding Warren gates to order.

[Mentalist]

???
I think you may be reading too much intot he whole "gate" thing....the only real example of that that we see in KG.
As for warrens--seeeing as thy're separate worlds, of course they'd predate the Holds...

[Venerus]

kud13;290587 said:

???
I think you may be reading too much into the whole "gate" thing....the only real example of that that we see in KG.

Could be. My sense from Draconus is that it's a standard theme though, if not the gates themselves then the wandering of the warrens moves the gates. In that whole passage from MoI Draconus sounds like he's explaining the balance of all warrens, but that's just my take on it.

I mean, he's not referring to a single Hold arising from KG's gate being chained, and then a following single House. He uses the language of Holds and Houses. Again, just my take on it.

kud13;290587 said:

As for warrens--seeing as they're separate worlds, of course they'd predate the Holds...

Oh, that was just in response to something earlier in the thread, looked like some people were confused about warrens vs holds vs houses, order of creation and all that.

[Mentalist]

Venerus;290668 said:

Could be. My sense from Draconus is that it's a standard theme though, if not the gates themselves then the wandering of the warrens moves the gates. In that whole passage from MoI Draconus sounds like he's explaining the balance of all warrens, but that's just my take on it.

I mean, he's not referring to a single Hold arising from KG's gate being chained, and then a following single House. He uses the language of Holds and Houses. Again, just my take on it.

yeah, you see, with SE it's hard to say, b/c there are also parallel patterns..

I mean, my take on the Azath and the structure of Holds and Houses is imposition of order onto the beings of power. Whereas the physical manifestation that is warrens and paths, is an imposition of order on magic itself--creation of separate worlds aspected to various powers/elements

[Venerus]

kud13;290690 said:

yeah, you see, with SE it's hard to say, b/c there are also parallel patterns..

So true, so true. I wonder if he'll ever buckle down and give it to us straight up, or if he'll leave it open-ended forevers? I'm gonna guess the latter. Especially if he ever wants to write more books in the same series (*hope hope hope*).

[Mentalist]

well, we're supposed to get an "Encyclopedia", once MBotF is done... so we'll see

[CatKillerJoe]

I am rather new to the series but I have always viewed the holds as being, savage? A better word would be primal version of the warrens. The holds represent the world and magic in its most basic form, like a person who uses the holds would be able to call forth a blast wave of fire to wipe out all in his path but in contrast a mage usuing the warren fo fire would be able to call forth a single flame to illuminate his way or surrond a single enemey in a wall of seathing flame. From reading MT all the major offensive magic they used seemed to be simple mass destruction or what you would view as the basic use of the particular aspect. Any whoo that is my idea on the division.

[Mentalist]

sigh...

HOLDS ARE NOT WARRENS!!!!

Holds are more primal then the Houses--yes.
Holds reflect ht he imposition of order on Elder Warrens--yes.

Holds directly related to warrens -- NO!!!!!!!!

[Aptorian]

Kud your own rant doesn't make any sense. Don't lecture a newb if you're just going to through oneliners at the poor guy.

Of course Holds are directly related to warrens. As Kud say they are a part of the system that controls the warrens.

First there was wandering, then holds and then houses. The power of the warren seems to come through these places like a focal point.

[Mentalist]

how does it not make sense? I'm saying they're not the same thing. i'm not a denying a connection.

I should apologize though, my temper is rather short on non-related manner. Cat Killer Joe, by far not everyone here is this agressive (even I'm not usually this agressive)

once again, I am not convinced they (holds) control the warrens per se. the reason is quite simple--we lack a correlation b/w Holds/Houses and actual warrens--which part of the Deck is supposed to correspond to Ruse/Denul/Tennes, etc?

hence my reservation to equate the two systems to each other.
once again, the only thing that "wandered" that we know of is the gate to KG. and we have had no Hold of Darkness.
The Holds/Houses seem to regulate and impose rules onto the various Ascendants that are grouped based on their allegiance or simple belonging to a certain aspect. Prime exampe of this --the 3 Houses of Light, Dark + Shadow, whose players stem from the Dragon Hold.

While there a re numerous undenyable connections between the two systems ("Wandering -->Holds-->Houses" and "Elder warrens-->paths", I feel that relating them 1:1 is a gross oversimplification.
Hope that made it clearer.
Once again, CatKillerJoe, my apologies fro the earlier outburst, and welcome to the forum!

[CatKillerJoe]

It aint no big biggy. I don't think I really explained myself that well. I think that the warrens and the houses are simply the next step of evoloution, i guess would be the right term, from the holds. I guess an easier way for me to understand would to see the Ceda and Quick Ben match whits..and or powers