[Aptorian]

The transition hasn't really been explained.

[Whiskeyjack]

That's what I thought:(

Thanks for your help though, Aptorian

EDIT: read on the admin board that you're a reputation whore, so I'll tosss a few fresh ones your way:)

[Mcflury]

as of why, my guess would be evolution... you could say in whole of history, in a way, mankind came from a very rough, powerful being to a more refined subtle species... so maybe the warrens just evolved into the houses (without the warrens getting extinct obviously)

[Whiskeyjack]

I was talking about holds to warrens, the co-existance of warrens and houses I already have a somewhat clear opinon on, although its highly likely that i will have to rethink at a later stage:)

Evolution itself is not the cause for a change, there would have to be practical need for something to evolve:p

[chill]

Whiskeyjack;240978 said:

Evolution itself is not the cause for a change, there would have to be practical need for something to evolve:p

And, as we could see, the Letherii found no need to discard the Holds, even though Houses have been established a long time ago.
The question is, what was the reason for everyone else to choose Houses over Holds?

[Aptorian]

Lether was special because the entire continent was apprently locked in a stagnant freeze at the time the Houses were implemented. Even after most of the ice had retreated to the northwest, the continent was still affected by the rituals aftereffect - the occlusion of the houses.

The Letheriis use of the holds wasn't a concious decision. It was all they had. It is enteresting to look at the first empire in comparison to the Lether empire. Lether didn't know of the houses. You could suggest that at the time the Colony was extablished the houses hadn't been founded yet, otherwise at least the Ceda would know that they once knew houses. That would mean it is less than 70.000 years since the houses were made.

[Whiskeyjack]

But there are cases of mages that actually use holds out of preference

BH:

Spoiler

Bottle for example uses Holds and spirits and if i remember correctly, there are such diffrences that makes this magic harder to track for those that use warrens, as he had no problem spying unless there was someone as powerfull as a High mage around

[Aptorian]

Can you give me a reference to him actually using a hold and not just demonstrating knowledge of the workings of the holds?

The edur vs malazan seaclash doesn't count.

It probably is possible to use a hold, Tellan is still in use by the T'lan Imass, and there's no house of Tellan, but generally there's no reason to use a hold if they even exist in areas of the houses influence. Houses are better than holds. Rake uses them. Osserc uses them. Etc.

[Whiskeyjack]

No, not using. It was just talking, but I doubt it was any deceptions on his part. This is what I was thinking of:

BH page 110:

Spoiler

Bottle: But I don't even like warrens
Strings: No, you're closer to Nil and Nether, aren't you? Spirits and stuff.
When you're not playing with Hood and Shadow that is!
Bottle: They're older than warrens, Sergeant.
Strings: Like that! What do you mean by that?
Bottle: Well. Holds. They're holds. Or they where. Before warrens. Its old magic, thats what my grandmother taught me. Real old...."

[Aptorian]

Indeed. But that quote states aswell that Holds aren't in use any longer. He knows Holds but the holds are what were, not what is, except for Lether.

[Whiskeyjack]

That they're not regulary in use, not that they can't be used. Stating preference suggests that they can be.

[DarthRahl]

has any one tried to map out the warrens, or even create a fan made deck of dragons based on the books so far? I keep greeting confused with all the warrens, it's Kurald this starvald that I can't keep it straight.

[Aptorian]

Sort of I guess. The easiest would be to access the Malazan Wikipedia but I warn you there could be slight spoilers if you look the right places, like for example summaries, etc.

http://encylopaediam...ica.pbwiki.com/

here's some specific pages:

http://encylopaediam...and+the+Warrens

keep in mind it's a work in progress.

[Optimus Prime]

DarthRahl;250069 said:

has any one tried to map out the warrens, or even create a fan made deck of dragons based on the books so far? I keep greeting confused with all the warrens, it's Kurald this starvald that I can't keep it straight.

How far along are you in the books? I found it easier as I got further along....check out the links Apt gave you...hell make your own list if you have to.

[DarthRahl]

Xander;250076 said:

How far along are you in the books? I found it easier as I got further along....check out the links Apt gave you...hell make your own list if you have to.

I'm almost done with bonehunters

[Optimus Prime]

Ah ok.

What exactly is confusing you? Just keeping track of all the names and which warren is tied to what element/race?

[DarthRahl]

Aptorian;250074 said:

Sort of I guess. The easiest would be to access the Malazan Wikipedia but I warn you there could be slight spoilers if you look the right places, like for example summaries, etc.

http://encylopaediam...ica.pbwiki.com/

here's some specific pages:

http://encylopaediam...and+the+Warrens

keep in mind it's a work in progress.

thanks for the help.

[Dammon]

How about this... Holds and Houses are two different things right? Holds been older and Houses newer?

So what if Holds tend to be a "dream" manifestation while Houses are a "physical" manifestation... I'll have to think about this one a bit more.

As for Warren and House, i believe that they are just a different word for the same thing. Warren refering to how the power is used and House refering to Heirachy of Ascendants within the warren.

[Whiskeyjack]

It's been a while since I last read anything *curses at uni*

But I think house is actually used describing a special area within a warren. That's the way it hit me atleast. I doubt there would be two that widely used terms for the same thing.

[Nequam]

I agree. That was kinda how I saw.
Or the 'ruling' body of that particular warren/aspect. Since they are all gods or ascendants.