[Skywalker]

Imperial Historian;238620 said:

That said there is evidence that the barghast migration did travel through the warrens, we see in DhG and HoC the remanants of a battle between barghast canoes and the tiste edur in the nascent, unfortunately this is likely another timeline error as the MOI barghast can't have been sailing around in the warrens fighting edur, but we'll keep quiet about that and pretend it was another group of barghast.

I had missed that! How do we know for sure it was Barghast vs Edur in the Nascent? Any quotes that clinch it?

[Abyss]

Imperial Historian;238620 said:

...unfortunately this is likely another timeline error as the MOI barghast can't have been sailing around in the warrens fighting edur, ...

Time works funny in the warrens. It could be them.
Not saying it was, but the possibility is open.

Also, there are various tribes all over the Malazan world with similar origins (see 'Jheck'), so similarly it could have been a totally separate but related group. The Edur were sailing all over the place killing peeps - hard to guess just how many they fought or where, including in warrens.

- Abyss, frequent warren mile collector...

[Imperial Historian]

I dont have my books with me but off the top of my head the cinching factors were:

The edur ship that survived the battle
The harpoon karsa retrieved from the opponents ships was of 'barghast' design
The descriptions of the ships, one taller, and one smaller canoe like suggested that the ships belonged to edur and barghast
And the paintings on one of the ships showing edur and barghast fighting, similar to the barghast myths.

There have been alternate theories however, one being that the other ships belonged to another faction of edur, the pure-kin that is mentioned in trulls chaining, but I still think the evidence indicates in the other direction, though I don't think we ever had a conclusive statement...

If your interested in quotes, I don't know exactly, but around page 180 in HoC, and 400 in DhG mmpb should yield karsas and heborics descriptions of the battle.

[amphibian]

Imperial Historian;238628 said:

The harpoon karsa retrieved from the opponents ships was of 'barghast' design

Just re-read DhG and the harpoon was said to be "too big" to actually be of Barghast design.

This is an aside of sorts: when Iskaral Pust gives Mappo some directions to find the library, how in the heck does Mappo pull "nineteen paces, on the left" out of it? If someone here could point me to the correct thread or answer the question, I'll rep you a few times or owe you one.

[Mentalist]

amphibian;238634 said:

This is an aside of sorts: when Iskaral Pust gives Mappo some directions to find the library, how in the heck does Mappo pull "nineteen paces, on the left" out of it? If someone here could point me to the correct thread or answer the question, I'll rep you a few times or owe you one.

LOOOL, there's a "most memorable" or "most hilarious" quotes thread either here, or in the TBH forum.. it was discussed there. I remember, b/c I brought it up as one of the best lines in MBotF. (Along with "the rooster died of grief", of course). Several math/engeneering people here actually tried using vectors to solve the problem. The lasting conclusion was--due tot eh exposure of physics-defying NO sack, Mappo has gained an understanding of math that surpasses normal hman knowledge.... or something like that.
EDIT: see here: http://malazanworld.com/forums/showthread....light=hilarious
Page 1 and part of pg 2

[Mcflury]

well, your engineer friends would surprise me if they came up with something using vectors... a route discription as it is given there in such a simple form won't, imo, be miraculously solved by means of vectors... anyways, appart from that small theory of mine... couldn't it just be that SE... was uncarefull?
I mean, chances are that SE was just writing a fun convo and didn't really think about the geometry at the moment of writing (and never checked it later). Besides, it's not as if anything ever is reasonable with Iskaral Pust... (as is also stated in the topic to which kud13 gave a link)

[Aptorian]

yes, it's not supposed to make sense. You are also implying that the temple follows our ideas of architectual planning.

This discussion is killing the joke.

[raest]

Two minor suggestions:

1. Put the dates on the far left - makes it easier to read vertically and compare dates.

2. A brief description of each event/period would be helpful for those who forget or haven't got the books.

Example:
(298,665 BBS) Prologue I of Memories of Ice: Kilava sends Jaghut children in to Rent at Morn

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I've found that the best way to deal with the confusing timeline is to ignore it. You'd be surprised at how much peace of mind it provides.

~Luxury Yacht, just remembered that there are book forums in addition to the Inn and sport threads.

[Werthead]

I was trying to find a way of redoing the dates to fit in the "TTH takes place 5 years after MoI" theory but I don't think it's going to work with the info we've got to go on. I'm going to hold off until Dust of Dreams comes out, which I suspect will screw everything up even further.

I think Dust of Dreams is going to pick up quite quickly after Reaper's Gale, which by other evidence shouldn't take place any more than 18 months after MoI...and then a bunch of TTH characters are going to show up, which I think will be the point my brain officially gives up and melts out through my ears. The only way that can work is if the Trygalle Trade Guild can travel through time when they go through the warrens...but if whatever is going down in DoD and TCG is world-threatening and if that crew has some role to play in helping save the day, shouldn't the world have been destroyed, preventing them from going back in time?

* fervantly hopes that we find out in later books that Darujhistan was put in some weird and highly localised time warp as that's the only way anything can make sense any more *

[Fuzzery]

A few minor TTH spoilers

There's just no way that TTH occurs only 1-2 years after MoI, given everything SE revealed in TTH and

Spoiler

about the Bridgeburners already starting to get a bit soft/retired (Antsy going on about being retired etc, just one year or so wouldn\'t have done that to him). Also I\'ve always figured it\'s been about 10 years from GotM to TTH, Murillio getting really old, and the city changing so much. So wait, this means Crokus is how old now?

This post has been edited by Fuzzery: 29 September 2008 - 12:38 AM

[Werthead]

Unfortunately, there is no way that TTH can take place 5-6 years after MoI either. Taken off its own back, Harllo's age seems conclusive, but laying out the relationships between TTH and the other books (particularly HoC, TBH and RG) reveals that it would be incredibly difficult for more than 2-3 years at maximum to have passed. It's when you throw RotCG into the mix you have to hoist the surrender flag, as that book makes it completely impossible for TTH to happen several years later.

And I would bet money that Dust of Dreams screws the whole thing up beyond even the vaguest hope of repair. Whilst there is a narrative disconnect between MoI and TTH, the action in DHG-HoC-TBH-RG is continuous with only one identifiable gap (one year between TBH and RG). If DoD picks up quickly after RG, and if characters from TTH turn up during DoD, then the last remaining hopes of dragging something that makes sense from the wreckage disappears.

[Imperial Historian]

My view on it is that SE made one major screw up in that the time gap necessary between MT and RG for everything to fit does not fit with the actions of the characters, the characters act as if at most a year has passed i'd say, wheras in actuality it must be much, much longer.

Other than that I think things fit fairly well, though the 5 year gap between MOI and TTH is a stretch, but I think 4 years is achievable with what info we have and there a nice fudge factor with the whole time works differently in the warrens buisness.

Why do you say RotCg guard screws things up? it occurs pretty much through the span of RG by my reckoning, before TTH, and doesn't greatly strain the timeline (aside from what may or may not be a draconus appearance) from what I read.

[Werthead]

At a rough estimate I'd put the end of RotCG perhaps a month or two before the start of RG. Having said that, we need to consider how long it took for Iron Bars to be dropped off on Jacuruku, fight his way across the continent and then inexplicably end up in the Rust Ocean (in completely the wrong location and opposite direction to where he's supposed to be going, either Stratem or Quon Tali), which potentially could push RotCG back further with no major problems or conflicts. However, I did get the impression that the annihilation of the Claw in Malaz City was fairly recent, however, given how often it is referenced, and - most tellingly - the Wickan pogrom is only just starting in RotCG. If it was a year or more after TBH, I'd expect it to be far more advanced.

The main problem, however, is that Traveller seems to leave this book and walk straight into TTH, as does Kallor (altough there is scope for both to have side-adventures along the way), which makes the latter happening 4+ years later unlikely. If that was Draconus at the end (which seems less and less likely when you also consider the Moon is still intact, although its condition at the end of RotCG seems to resemble that in TTH before it explodes), then obviously it is impossible.

RotCG does, very helpfully, give an in-text confirmation that time works differently in the Warrens, but there is still no evidence of actual travel backwards through time being possible through the Warrens. So it is impossible for the Trygalle Trade Guild to arrive in Lether shortly after the events of RG, as they would be arriving some years before they left Genabackis in TTH.

Of course, if DoD starts and Tavore is moaning about how they've spent 4 years pottering around in Letheras, then life becomes a hell of a lot easier.

I also maintain that there is nothing stopping SE from writing a novella featuring Team Fear Sengar having a side-adventure in the Warrens between MT and RG, explaining where all that time disappeared to.

[Epiph]

Werthead, on Dec 30 2007, 12:53 PM, said:

1165-66 BS?: Reaper's Gale
1165-66 BS?: Toll the Hounds

RG and TtH couldn't happen simultaneously, because Karsa and particularly Samar Dev had to have time to get from Lether at the end of RG to Genebackis for TtH.

This post has been edited by Epiph: 02 October 2008 - 06:32 PM

[Werthead]

That is correct. I haven't changed the master list though due to the overwhelming level of headaches it induces. Ignoring the Harllo Paradox, I would say that TTH takes place 6 months or so after RG, but with the Paradox now in play, it's impossible to say for sure.

[End of Disc One]

Shouldn't the GotM prologue be right after NoK?

[Malaclypse]

Would you rather have Thieves' World? becasue that's the only scenario that comes close. Imagine what it must feel like for Cam. Just take a moment and do that.

[End of Disc One]

I wasn't questioning the accuracy of the authors, I was questioning the accuracy of the timeline given in this topic.

But anyway, I just reread the GotM prologue and realized that I misremembered. I thought the the prologue came after the "assassinations" of Kellanved and Dancer but it really did not. So please ignore my last post.

[Urizen]

Werthead, on Sep 29 2008, 11:41 PM, said:

At a rough estimate I'd put the end of RotCG perhaps a month or two before the start of RG. Having said that, we need to consider how long it took for Iron Bars to be dropped off on Jacuruku, fight his way across the continent and then inexplicably end up in the Rust Ocean (in completely the wrong location and opposite direction to where he's supposed to be going, either Stratem or Quon Tali), which potentially could push RotCG back further with no major problems or conflicts. However, I did get the impression that the annihilation of the Claw in Malaz City was fairly recent, however, given how often it is referenced, and - most tellingly - the Wickan pogrom is only just starting in RotCG. If it was a year or more after TBH, I'd expect it to be far more advanced.

but what of Hood's chat with Toc the Younger at the end of RG about how Toc the Elder still being alive?