[Mcflury]

ah, yes, idd, forgot about those moments when Karsa was captured and stuff

And again about the Crimson guard: the ting with Dassem Ultor, where did you get that info? From one of thos other books (night of knives perhaps)? Cause I can't recall it being in any of the main series books.

[Aptorian]

Yes its from NoK, Temper recalls different CG avowed that fought Dassem and lost. The Avowed aren't immortal they are just enhanced, they sort of remind me of living T'lan Imass in that way.

A shattered hip and a good thrashing was enough to keep Iron Bars down.

[Jayblah]

Gothos;237663 said:

my usual manner, eh. who the fuck are you? who's the little twit here?

Jayblah said:

Did you even bother reading my posts in this thread before launching into your typically tactless diatribes?

I am a long time lurker, recently registered poster and therefore familiar with your nigh worthless posting manner. One needs only to look back into the annals of forum history to see some of the utterly retarded posts you've made. In any case, thanks for lending veracity to my quoted words. Also:

Now, onto people worth replying to.

-----

Aptorian said:

Generally from HoC through BH to RG, Karsa is developing. In HoC Karsa is enlightened. He becomes aware of the world and tries to adjust to this new world with its politics and swarming masses of humans. In BH we see his political or philisophical views of humanity and civilization come into focus. Karsa is not just adjusting, he is judging and finding human civilization too light. In RG his social and political outlook seems to have been fixed. He now see's himself as a leader and liberator. Someone better than what he see's is the norm.

I'm not so sure I agree, Aptorian. Yes, Karsa has developed, but I still find him insufferable and don't see this tremendous growth that others speak about. I actually liked BH Karsa the best, personality wise. RG Karsa seemed to be a step backward. I honestly think alot of people's personal love for a big asskicking barbarian causes them to view Karsa with rose-colored glasses. That's not to say I'm not overly harsh of him due to my finding him a boring character and my disdain of his early-HoC behaviour. Am I hoping he ultimately turns out to be a likable fellow? Sure. It hasn't happened yet for me. I've begun my reread now, so I'll be giving Karsa's arch a solid take-two.

Regarding "Karsa makes every fight a farce;" I've qualified this multiple times as him having not lost a fight after he matured physically (its stated he's a Teblori-teenybopper or something at HoC's start) and/or once he forged the sword and subsequently uttered "IDDQD." Urko, Malazans, etc. happened prior to the latter.

Mcflury said:

are you sure the female seguleh in RG had 11 stripes? I thought she only had 2 stripes really... well, it doesn't matter... the point is: when the seguleh with no stripes on his mask comes into play, things are bound to get freaky.

Fiddler and Cuttle remark that it was the Eleventh, if I recall correctly. I can't recall how many stripes the mask had, but I thought it was two as well...

[Mentalist]

she had Eleven Stripes--that makes her the Twelveth (#1 has a clean mask).
Back to the Karsa issue--he clearly shows progress at the end of HoC when he says that Malazans are no longer his enemy, and that he now believes that making as many vows as he can was stupid. His conversations with Samar Dev in tBH reveal his nature as being straight to the point, but not necessarily stupid.
One thing that peopletend to forget with relation to various characters--many of them are NOT human. TTTs are NOT human. therefore, Karsa's take on htings must be judged with that in mind. For a "barbarian raised in an isolationist traditional society", he has made great progress culturally. Everything he does in RG--well, his disdain for Letherii is comparable to that of the Awl, with the exception that he's bigger and can do something about it. Since he's a barbarian, he refuses to understand the finer point of negotiation--leaving his sword seems to be a big issue, but for all the guards'-skull-cracking that he does, he doesn't actually assault any regular Letherii citizens, so by his logic, him carrying his sword with him doesn't really threaten anyone's life.
as for Karsa v. Rhulad -- (sigh), in the very first Rhulad bit in RG, we get a glimpse of Trull telling him, that the sword's in charge... then this message is reiterated by Fear, by the Warlock King, etc.... Rhulad was NEVER a badass--the sword was. also, he was only killed some 100 times, not 1000 as his title suggests. All build up and no substance--and it did not surprise me at all that he wnt down like he did--I totally expected it to happen like that even before I read RG. Also, for the lack of Icarium v. Rhulad/Karsa-- that was also pretty clear, since if such a thing were to happen, Icarium woul level half the continent, and such mass catasrophes are not SE's style...

[Gothos]

lurkers are worse than forum alts.

in other words, what you're saying is "my theory is true but only in my selected span of time. conflicting evidence should be ignored". hah.
talk of physical maturity along what, five years, when he was 80 already, that's very weak bullshit.
also, you are of course misunderstanding. the thing I like in Karsa the most is his character development, personality and stolid defiance of the rules. if someone's a powerhouse or not has in the end no value for his/hers quality as a character.
RG Karsa we're mostly seeing from the eyes of other characters (all of it, in fact, iirc). he's been barely touched by the storyline in the book, and I just wonder how much of what he said, especially with Samar Dev as the PoV in the passage, was just specifically aimed at her. makes quite a bit of sense that way, in fact.
besides, if I'm not worth replying to, dear lurker, why did you do just that?

[Gothos]

kud13;237720 said:

and such mass catasrophes are not SE's style...

oh, who wrote about Jacuruku then? :-)

[Mentalist]

Gothos;237724 said:

oh, who wrote about Jacuruku then? :-)

Jacuruku was a long time ago, and no one significant to the story died. If SE was all about mMass catastrophes we'd have seen half the cast of tBH wiped out by the jade chunks. that's what I was comparing Icarium levelling Letheras too.
Besides, most of the ppl in the Kallorean empire willingly comitted suicide for the sake of their lord and master...(must have been the most successful cult in Wu's history)

[caladanbrood]

There was also the slaughter of the Aren Legion... which was what, 10000 soldiers? Or was it 3000, I can't honestly remember.

[Mentalist]

ah, yes... 10,000.
But, once again, the only significant person to die at that was Duiker. The rest were unknown to the readers. and anonymity tends to reduce the impact of mass death....

[caladanbrood]

But there aren't enough well known characters for that;)

[Mentalist]

lol, ok, to illustrate what I mean, hypothetical:
Rhulad v. Icarium, Icarium goes mental, his rage destroys half of Lether, the bonehunters die in the forest 3 days away from the capital, as a wave of magic wipes out all life, we see the Second maiden Fort collapse, with Tavore, Lostara, Blistig, Keneb Shurque, etc crushed by the ruins,
in Letheras itself, Tehol, Ublala,Janath, the partiotists, everyone die, their deaths are mentioned in passing.
THAT'S the kind of overkilll I meant. the same can be applied to another potential catastrophe of similar proportion when the Jade chunks were about to fall on Wu.
so going back to my original post, that is why I figured Rhulad v. Icarioum wouldn't happen even before I read RG.

[caladanbrood]

Oh, I see. Well, I can see why Erikson wouldn't want to do that. Being ruthless with characters is one thing, killing off virtually your entire character base could cause... problems for future books;) Certainly until book ten I think we'll have to settle for mostly impersonal slaughter.

[Dancer+]

caladanbrood;237737 said:

But there aren't enough well known characters for that;)

If SE even attempted such a thing a mob would try and get him, of course I'd be on hand to protect him. He's free to kill Rake, Quick Ben, Karsa, Apsalar, Fiddler, Tayschrenn, Hood, Coltaine reborn etc. etc. and I wouldn't be agrieved

[Varen]

Jayblah;236387 said:

Karsa on the other hand is some diluted Toblakai-mutt whose singular defining characteristic is he just "wills" himself to persevere.

I remember during one of my rereads of the series that it was mentioned somewhere that there where tarthenal toblakai and thelomen toblakai, 2seperate types of toblakai, and i also seem to remember that there was the mention that either the tarthenal or thelomen where warrens onto themsleves. Just makes me think that this is something to explain karsa pre-eminence among the toblakai. Ill have a look for the quote altho i've no idea in which book its in ><

[Mentalist]

Dancer;237748 said:

He's free to kill Rake, Quick Ben, Karsa, Apsalar, Fiddler, Tayschrenn, Hood, Coltaine reborn etc. etc. and I wouldn't be agrieved

Ditto, as long as it's done right, and is memorable.
I note how you conveniently omitted the Shadow gods....

EDIT: @ Varen: Tartheno Thelomen Toblakai--million names for them, but all off shoots of same species (conveniently referred to as TTT). As for which book, I believe it's in tBH, someone notes a trace of a TTT warren on the Silanda....

[Aptorian]

I wonder what actually happens when Icarium goes into a meltdown. The only people I actually remember suggesting that Icarium could destroy a continent is Veed and that soldier who was with them in the cave in BH. The soldier is just rambling but Veed might know some legends. I wonder if it is it all just hype?

It would have to be that keening effect that does the real damage. I guess it could just rise and rise untill everything in hundreds of square miles is inside a vortex of chaos, but I doubt it would get that violent before Icarium is stopped or the threat is obliterated.

If you think of the first empire city Iccy had destroyed in DG, it wasn't described as haven been ripped apart by magic. There were still structures and statues that bore the marks of Iccys furious slashing at anything and everyone.

[caladanbrood]

Dancer;237748 said:

He's free to kill Rake, Quick Ben, Karsa, Apsalar, Fiddler, Tayschrenn, Hood, Coltaine reborn etc. etc. and I wouldn't be agrieved

Fiddler at least pretty much has to die in the last book. Preferably by jumping into the CGs tent with a bag of cussers, but I suppose that's unlikely given Erikson's propensity for tragically pointless deaths...

[Varen]

Yarr could be that although i still have a feeling that tarthenal and thelomen where mentioned in the same sentence as being a seperate thing, bonehunters seems to be a good place to look, i just cant remember who would be talking about the toblakai, maybe its just one of those gotmisms. ill leave it for now i think and can edit after another reread if needed.

[Mentalist]

@ Brood
lol, yeah... it'll probably be the last thing Kallor does before dying himself.... Fiddler will just happen to enter the room as Kallor tosses his sword at whomever dealt him a mortal wound....

@ varen....
Hmmm.... it might have even been Bottle talking...or Deadsmell, he seems to know things... as for the TTT species quotes--MT and RG are rife with them...

[Zanth13]

I dont know what you are are looking for with mass death, but

the battle of black coral killed allot of known people....

the end of Reapers gale allot of known people died (even people who got allot of pov time)


but im not sure if im even on the right subject... im overworked undersexed, and havent had alcohol in over a month now... I think im going through withdrawals...by the time im done I might actually have a liver, wonder what i should do with it..