[Gothos]

probably the canyon backed off

[Shuglin]

The Canyon pulled a TFM(Tactical Flanking Maneuver) who wouldn't with Karsa jumping down their gullet. I could be wrong but I think some of you are to in love with the "good" people in this series.

[Mcflury]

that would be hard to say since there are no strictly good people... they all do bad stuff from time to time... (besides, good or bad are a point of view really... by calling the 'good' people good, you yourself incline people like the CG would be bad... or the other way around, which wouldn't make any sense since we can understand you like the 'bad' people better... but when you like the 'bad' people better, they really should be good to you... okay.. I'm going mental again, time to take my medicine )

[amphibian]

Mcflury;238475 said:

that would be hard to say since there are no strictly good people... they all do bad stuff from time to time... (besides, good or bad are a point of view really... by calling the 'good' people good, you yourself incline people like the CG would be bad... or the other way around, which wouldn't make any sense since we can understand you like the 'bad' people better... but when you like the 'bad' people better, they really should be good to you... okay.. I'm going mental again, time to take my medicine )

In the interests of readability, could you please write in actual sentences?

As cool as ellipses are, it'd be awesome if you could break up this ramble into separate thoughts and then we're good to go.

[Mcflury]

I don't know how I could make it more readable than this:
Good or bad is a matter of perception. Thus, when you say everybody likes the 'bad' guys, you're actually admitting they are bad. And by admitting they are bad, you are explaining yourself why nobody likes them, since nobody likes the bad guys. Sure, in this story one could say the CG is a bad guy, and likes him... but that person would like the CG because he is good in that person's point of view, not because the CG is actually bad.
(all of that most likely unreadable rambling just to point out there are never any strictly good nor bad guys )

[amphibian]

Mcflury;238611 said:

I don't know how I could make it more readable than this:
Good or bad is a matter of perception. Thus, when you say everybody likes the 'bad' guys, you're actually admitting they are bad. And by admitting they are bad, you are explaining yourself why nobody likes them, since nobody likes the bad guys. Sure, in this story one could say the CG is a bad guy, and likes him... but that person would like the CG because he is good in that person's point of view, not because the CG is actually bad.
(all of that most likely unreadable rambling just to point out there are never any strictly good nor bad guys )

Bidithal, one of Shaik's High Mages, was a pretty straightforward bad guy. Kimloc the Tano Spiritwalker was/is entirely good.

You are right in saying that on a "morality scale" the vast majority of characters in TMBotF lie somewhere in between the poles of good and evil, but there are characters scattered here and there that reside on the extremes.

[Mentalist]

Jayblah;238397 said:

The term "giant" gets thrown around alot when it comes to Karsa, who is a Teblor and not a true TTT (a race of true giants). The term can also be misleading. When I think of "giant" I think of a 20-foot tall angerstomping fee-fi-fo-fum'ing mofo', I certainly don't think of Shaquile O'Neal. Karsa's height is around 7-8 feet and no more. Of course, he's also built like Ahnuld, has four lungs, and isn't human. Alas...



The major disappointment regarding Brys Beddict's revival is that it invalidates the idea that Ganoes Paran's would be the only true resurrection in the series. Prior to Brys, other characters were brought back, but all experienced changes/difficulties, unlike Ganoes.

ummm.. just to clarify--Paran never crossed Hood's gate. Thus, he never died.
If you're not through the gate, you're not dead. Easy as that. Which is why Toc's not dead!!!!

[Mcflury]

it's not true amphibian... in that whole world of Wu there must have been a person who thought Bithidal was partially right in what he did (or wrong concerning Kimloc), even if it was thought under influance of the purest Durhang you've ever seen... it would still influance the term bad or good so it would become a grey area term. And I believe that's what SE tries to do all the time too, keep his guys as grey as possible (sort of). Okay, it's sometimes hard to call a guy grey when you didn't see his PoV, but if we would have seen his PoV enough we would've thought he was grey.
Anyways, this topic isn't supposed to be about grey-zoned characters or not... it's supposed to be about Karsa being boring or not... so up till now I think this is the best way to put this complete topic: 'You like him or you like him not and only new input in the series about Karsa will make us change that!'

[amphibian]

Mcflury;238666 said:

it's not true amphibian... in that whole world of Wu there must have been a person who thought Bithidal was partially right in what he did (or wrong concerning Kimloc), even if it was thought under influance of the purest Durhang you've ever seen... it would still influance the term bad or good so it would become a grey area term. And I believe that's what SE tries to do all the time too, keep his guys as grey as possible (sort of). Okay, it's sometimes hard to call a guy grey when you didn't see his PoV, but if we would have seen his PoV enough we would've thought he was grey.

Thus far it seems that Erikson subscribes to the view that morality is not subjective, and Bidithal was one of the most, if not the most, evil characters Erikson has created yet. He was a pedophile who joined the rebels, brainwashed his mutilated victims into following him, planned to kill his liege, was incorporated into the House of Chains as the Magi and then was executed by Karsa, who deemed it justice. Worst of all, he had no funny or intelligent lines.

At no point did any character side with Bidithal for any reason but necessity.

[Spindrift]

amphibian;238685 said:

Thus far it seems that Erikson subscribes to the view that morality is not subjective, and Bidithal was one of the most, if not the most, evil characters Erikson has created yet.

I'm not following your logic here. I don't see the evilness of bidithal as being any indication of the authors moral compass, be it moral absolutist or relativist

[Optimus Prime]

Wow guys that was a fascinating read of posts...see what happens when you go home for Christmas and drink too much to post?!?!? (I know...I didn't think it was possible...but alas )

Anyway...I agree with people like Gothos and Apt. Karsa actually GREW on me as a character. I'm not going to lie...the first part of HoC...I wanted this dude to die painfully...horribly...even though I knew there was a reason SE was spending SOOO many pages on one character for the first time in a series.

Yet I now love Karsa. Why? He has grown and surprised me. Is he a bad mother fucker? Yes. Has he won some fights that pushed the borders of believability? Depends on your definition of fantasy. Do I intend to keep asking myself questions in this post? Maybe.

Now..on the the growth. He has gone from rampaging arrogant youth who unthinkingly endangered himself and others to calculating and now possible leader of a new Toblakai nation. Yeah, he still jumps into frays with his fierce, barbaric "witness" mentality...but like someone posted earlier...he knows his limits in ways now.

I am surpised to see so much Karsa hate, yet not much Rake, Quick Ben, Kalam, Fiddler....(I could go on) hate. How are these characters different in the way they have seemingly untouchable badassitude. Yeah I just made that word up!

[Mcflury]

@amphibian: yes, Bidithal does idd do very... wel, bad is a too light word for what he did really... but what makes Bidithal kinda grey was 1) he did it out of personal conviction/religion and 2) someone had done it to Bidithal earlier (if I'm not mistaken though... Bidithal was probably scarred from his youth anyways).

Okay, so the second way to make it grey is the one to which most would say 'nay!' (cool rhymes huh? ) But anyways, the first part makes him grey enough I believe... or at least not completely black anymore. And as I said before: if we would've actually seen Bidithal's PoV we would've been able to make him grey better.

[amphibian]

Spindrift;238692 said:

I'm not following your logic here. I don't see the evilness of bidithal as being any indication of the authors moral compass, be it moral absolutist or relativist

I do not think Bidithal alone indicates whether or not Erikson is an absolutist or relativist, but I do think that the reactions of everyone around Bidithal indicate that there is some form of absolutism going on in the series. Mathok, Leoman, Heboric, L'oric, Kalam, Karsa and many others from the different tribal, cultural and social backgrounds all recoiled in horror and disgust when they came to understand what Bidithal was doing.

What's different about this absolutism is that violence or killing people seems to lie under the domain of cultural norms, yet violence against children is a universal no-no. It resembles an attitude of "if you're an adult, anything goes."

Note: In no way am I saying Erikson approaches the Goodkind zone here.

McFlury said:

@amphibian: yes, Bidithal does idd do very... wel, bad is a too light word for what he did really... but what makes Bidithal kinda grey was 1) he did it out of personal conviction/religion and 2) someone had done it to Bidithal earlier (if I'm not mistaken though... Bidithal was probably scarred from his youth anyways).

Okay, so the second way to make it grey is the one to which most would say 'nay!' (cool rhymes huh? ) But anyways, the first part makes him grey enough I believe... or at least not completely black anymore. And as I said before: if we would've actually seen Bidithal's PoV we would've been able to make him grey better.

We did see a few short Bidithal passages in House of Chains. They centered on his dealings with Shaik's betrayers, his interactions with his victims and musings on how to obtain power by seizing the KE fragment. None of them were particularly illuminating or presented elements of his past that would "grey" our perception of him, like what happened to Feather Witch (the Errant conversation about virginity).

Furthermore, he outright admits to Heboric that what he's doing is wrong and goes on to say that since Shaik needs him, nobody can do anything about it.

Anyways, after re-reading HoC, I noticed a few lines that explicitly state that Karsa will experience some major loss of will or motivation that is going to either completely break him or make him.

[Aptorian]

Bidithal knows what he does is bad, but he thinks it is necessary for Shaik to become what she needs to be, cold and emotionless. It's his reasoning and excuse.

You also see in his thoughts on his plans of betrayal that they have a reason. He wants to refashion KE, which is noble idea.

[Abyss]

Aptorian;238968 said:

Bidithal...He wants to refashion KE, which is noble idea.

Except for the part where he fills it with chain stores, a parking lot, and abused children for his personal amusement.


- Abyss, was at Kurald Walmart the other day...

[Optimus Prime]

Abyss;238973 said:

Except for the part where he fills it with chain stores, a parking lot, and abused children for his personal amusement.


- Abyss, was at Kurald Walmart the other day...

Touche!

No matter what an author tries to do...there will always be at least a few characters that are considered "good" or "evil"...though SE comes damn close.

[Mentalist]

meh.... I subscribe to the "If you can understand them, you can forgive them" school of thought.
In that way, pretty much everyone Se writes is grey to me. and that's what makes him awesome.

[Mcflury]

once again I agree with kud
Sure, some people are easier to be liked then others... and it's the human nature to actually always try to see the best (or worse in some cases) in certain beings/situations... but that doesn't mean they're actually as good/bad as you think

[Gothos]

I've got no idea how a paedophile can be considered grey. they're black as tar.

[Mentalist]

meh... look past the actions, toward the motivations....
(ok, maybe it's just the psychology major in me talking right now)