[cerveza_fiesta]

What the title said. Who were the drunks by the ice demon pond? My recollection of that part of the book is hazy...i might have been drunk or hungover while reading it.

I seem to remember there being a strong hint that they are elder gods or some sort of immortal. Am I totally full of it or do y'all recall?

[Cougar]

I thought just some local ascendants, or perhaps some local gods who had fallen from regular worship?

I'm sure there is a line about them being in lots of scenes from the past, perhaps Brys says it or the Jaghut?

Memory is hazy and I'm at work.

[Aptorian]

I think they are eldergods in the way we call the Errant, Ardatha, etc Elder gods. They are at least as old as the empires past. I think it's mentioned in RG that they, much like the Errant, have been forgotten.

The thing I found most enteresting was their drinking. I could easily imagine that they are in fact merely powerfull spirits that are reliving their favorite days over and over again, being (some what) in love, getting drunk and enjoying the lake. Or that the stuff they are drinking is not alcohol at all but some kind of symbolism for their offerings.

I believe that its mentioned that a picture of them sitting by that lake is hanging in someones room/house/palace.

[Vengeance]

It is right before Bry's comes out of the water, I can't remember the characters name but he says something like "there is a 600 year old tapestery in the palace that has and ugly man and women sitting and drinking by a pond" the women responds with who is ugly. Or something like that. Yeah remember someone said that Lether was awash with ascendents. I think that they are some really old gods/ascendents.

[Aptorian]

Well, Lether is a colony of an empire that once made its own ascendants - the entire nobility were probably Ascendants, or in the case of the late empire, Soletaken.

[Obdigore]

Aptorian;235697 said:

Well, Lether is a colony of an empire that once made its own ascendants - the entire nobility were probably Ascendants, or in the case of the late empire, Soletaken.

Well no, they had a ritual to become soletaken. Some died in the ritual, Imass slaughtered many, since I think becoming soletaken caused most to go insane.
Edit: I have to admit, I don't KNOW that there weren't ascendants int he nobility of the human first empire. The only one I know of was the leader, who was also a soletaken. Do you have something from a book indicating that most of the nobility was ascended in the old empire that I missed?

Is a soletaken an ascendant? Do they age? So many questions!

600 years old? They could just be powerful, bored mages? Isn't Baruk rediculously old?

[Aptorian]

No the ritual was an experiment gone wrong. I'm pretty sure it says somewhere that soletaken'ship had become a popular new choice with people/the young instead of Ascending.

Apparently soletaken and divers don't need to ascend seeing as we had at least a couple of 100.000 years old soletaken/d'ivers in DG that weren't originally First Hero's (which, by the way, sounds like just another name for ascendants)

The drunks are specifically mentioned as gods.

[cerveza_fiesta]

@apt

I thought they were mentioned as gods too...

I wonder if there were any more subtle references to old-ascendant-like folks kicking around in Lether. I can't remember any specifically.

Do you think the drunks are /will be important, or are they just a device to show that the old ascendants just hang out in lether for lack of anything better to do. Kind of a "living forever gets boring so lets go hang out with unpredictable humans" type thing.

[Aptorian]

I think they were just a detail, but to be honest I thought they were exendable.

[Obdigore]

Aptorian;235718 said:

No the ritual was an experiment gone wrong. I'm pretty sure it says somewhere that soletaken'ship had become a popular new choice with people/the young instead of Ascending.

Apparently soletaken and divers don't need to ascend seeing as we had at least a couple of 100.000 years old soletaken/d'ivers in DG that weren't originally First Hero's (which, by the way, sounds like just another name for ascendants)

The drunks are specifically mentioned as gods.

Hrm. I shall have to read that part again. Is that in DG, while they crawl through the ruins in the desert (ftl, baudin, heb?)? Are there more mentions of it that I can't think of?

Why am I thinking Feather Witch has something on it in RG?

My Brains, it hurts.

[Skywalker]

Yep. Heboric rants about it in DG when they come across the people frozen into statues in the cave (when hiding from the dust storm with Felisin and Kulp):

Quote

"Her daughter chose the path of the Soletaken, a fraught journey, that. She was hardly unique; the twisted route was a popular alternative to Ascension. More... earthly, they claimed. And older... and that which was old was in high favour in the last days of the First Empire. It was understandable that Elders of the day sought to ease their children's chosen path. Sought to create a new version of the old, risk-laden one... for that had crumbled, weakened, was cancerous. Too many of the Empire's young were being lost-and never mind the wars to the west..."

[Urb]

Aptorian;235725 said:

I think they were just a detail, but to be honest I thought they were exendable.

There is only one character in the series who is not expendable, and that is Grub.

[Illuyankas]

It was Ormly who mentioned the 600 year old panel somewhere in the palace, on his way to return Brys' last finger. And yeah, as sky_walker quotes, the whole Soletaken Ritual that exploded the First Empire was a result of trying to streamline the Soletaken process that was being used instead of Ascension.

[thesalus]

Aptorian;235718 said:

First Hero's (which, by the way, sounds like just another name for ascendants)

For the most part.

Quote

'That's not a god, you fool. Treach is a First Hero, a demigod, a Soletaken ascendant—'

[Aptorian]

the interesting part there is the word "demigod"... where the hell does that fit into our cleancut view of the system. I think demigod is just another word for ascendant, perhaps a legendary one that is known but doesn't have the power of worship.

That quote also starts the debate whether you can be soletaken with out being ascendant, or if soletaken ascendant means you are more badass than the common soletaken.

EDIT: please include page references and book names, since you can't always trust characters accounts or which context they are taken from.

[cerveza_fiesta]

*leaves the train, sensing imminent derailment*

"DAMN YOU THIS IS NOT ANOTHER ASCENDANCY THREAD!!"

@sky-walker

your quote indicates they could have been soletaken then? I wonder if that's why there are so many hanging around lether. Could the errant also be among this "younger generation" that did soletakening instead of ascending? hmm...that was just a thought, not sure if its too valid though.

[BridgeBurner]

Aptorian;235725 said:

I think they were just a detail, but to be honest I thought they were exendable.

I found it a nice touch, since they were also used by SE, to give a POV of when the underwater demon was locked into the lake by the Ceda and that Jhagut, back in MT.

(sorry Apt, no references... )

[Ezikeil]

I don't belive Errant was soletaken cerveza_fiesta if I remember correctly from Reaper's Gale he had accended as a god of fourtune and Master of the Holds in the first Empire. He then did not like the way his worshipers were takeing the religion so he killed them off like D'riss. However unlike D'riss he "steped down" and just became a regular acendant. How he stepped down i have no idea.

[thesalus]

Book 1, Chapter 2, MoI 74 - Picker, Bridgeburner corporal

Quote

Picker sneered. 'That's not a god, you fool. Treach is a First Hero, a demigod, a Soletaken ascendant—'

Book 2, Chapter 7, MoI 287 - Karnadas, Destriant of Fener

Quote

'First Heroes are not gods,' Karnadas growled, rubbing at his face as the cold, wind-blasted numbness faded. 'They're not even tribal spirits, sir...'

Book 2, Chapter 7, MoI 314 - Treach, Whiskered One

Quote

We fled, a handful of survivors. Ryllandaras, old friend—we fell out, clashed, then clashed again on another continent. He had gone the farthest, found a way to control the gifts—Soletaken and D'ivers both. White Jackal. Ay'tog. Agkor. And my other companion, Messremb—where has he gone? A kind soul, twisted by madness, yet so loyal, ever loyal…
Ascending. Fierce arrival—the First Heroes. Dark, savage.

Interesting. Ascending. Who ascended? The First Heroes. Plural. Would that mean Ryllandaras and Messremb are also ascendants? They were both on the Path of Hands.

Book 2, Chapter 17, MoI 699 - Itkovian, Torrud Seguleh

Quote

Gruntle. The name was a hammerblow to his chest. Brutal certainty forced his next thoughts. The Mortal Sword of Trake, Tiger of Summer. The First Hero is ascended.

Ascended... to godhood?

Well. It was mentioned by Heboric that being a soletaken was a popular alternative to ascension. Was Buke an ascendant? I doubt it. And the whole Path of Hands substory was the whole shapeshifting community finding a path to ascension - to gain control over their kin.

[Skywalker]

Awesome research on the quotes Thesalus... have rep