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Anti Doom & Gloom for Wheel of Time

#21 User is offline   Coco with marshmallows 

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 06:32 PM

Abyss;236331 said:

Correct me if i'm wrong, but is this actually the first time a series with a relatively definitive end in sight could not be finished by its original author for reasons of death?


also, Herbert's Dune series.

although personally, i didn't really like any of them after God-emperor that much.

I know his son and (Kevin Anderson?) finished the last one from Frank Herbert's notes, but its been so long since i read the series that i can't motivate myself to finish it.
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#22 User is offline   cerveza_fiesta 

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 07:11 PM

I thought there was a bunch of other LOTR stuff written by Tolkien's son. I guess it doesn't really count because I don't think the books tie too closely to the original trilogy arcs, but I've never read the Tolkien Jr. books.

Also good call on dune. Herbert's son did finish some books, but the core trilogy was herbert. The ones his son did are kind of external to that original story, kind of like the Tolkien Jr. situation described above.
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Posted 20 December 2007 - 07:14 PM

Hmm... also it is debatable whether JRRT wanted to ever publish the Silmarillion. Apparently he hated the fanboy attention LOTR got B)
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#24 User is offline   Pallol One Eye 

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 08:04 PM

Cocoreturns;236377 said:

I know his son and (Kevin Anderson?) finished the last one from Frank Herbert's notes, but its been so long since i read the series that i can't motivate myself to finish it.



I want to read the last one, well, 2 actually (they turned it into two volumes), but I would have to re-read at least the last two Frank wrote (Chapterhouse and Heretics of Dune) to get grounded again. I also have a suspicious feeling based on the jacket covers descriptions that they are tying in a lot of stuff from the prequels they wrote (Machine Crusade, Butlerian Jihad). So to be able to understand all the nuances in the last two books (Hunters and Sandworms) I would have to read the prequels as well.

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#25 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 08:39 PM

He was the 'daddy' of 'Us Epic Fantasy' imo, at least easily accessable epic fantasy. All the farmboy-cum-hero stories are coming from this one.

The books (first... 5or 6) are good, if a little easy to judge what is going to happen, the last books, he gets overwhelmed by trying to continue keeping everything detailed as the storylines get further apart and more complex.

Its not that the writing was 'bad', its that stuff really stopped happening.

Well, until the last book, but thats another story.
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#26 User is offline   Werthead 

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 01:18 AM

Quote

I thought there was a bunch of other LOTR stuff written by Tolkien's son. I guess it doesn't really count because I don't think the books tie too closely to the original trilogy arcs, but I've never read the Tolkien Jr. books.


Tolkien's son has never 'written' anything. What has been published by him is JRRT's original notes, drafts and unfinished stories, not to mention some fully-completed essays (some of them of great interest, particularly about the Istari, the Palantiri, the military organisation of Rohan and why Gandalf recruited Bilbo to go on the quest in The Hobbit).

Quote

Hmm... also it is debatable whether JRRT wanted to ever publish the Silmarillion. Apparently he hated the fanboy attention LOTR got


Erm, not really. JRRT actually worked with Christopher in the last two or three years of his life before he died in preparing The Silmarillion for publication, and JRRT mapped out precisely what he wanted to go into the book. It was never his intention that The Silmarillion remain unpublished, and he had been promising to finish and publish it ever since Lord of the Rings came out twenty years earlier, but his usual procrastination meant he couldn't finish it himself.

More recently, Christopher has admitted that although the overall storyline of The Silmarillion is what JRRT intended, some of the details are a bit hazy, as JRRT never finalised certain elements of the story that his son knew he was working on, such as Galadriel's role in The Silmarillion and what role the Druadan and the Ents played in the First Age. As JRRT never finalised those ideas, CT couldn't include them in the published book.

Quote

Also good call on dune. Herbert's son did finish some books, but the core trilogy was herbert. The ones his son did are kind of external to that original story, kind of like the Tolkien Jr. situation described above.


No, it's not like that situation at all. Sigh.

Frank Herbert planned to write three Dune novels. When he finished Children of the Dune he realised there was scope for an extended 'coda' for the trilogy, that became God-Emperor of Dune. Then his publisher offered him an obscene amount of money, so Herbert caved and wrote a trilogy that began with Heretics of Dune and continued with Chapterhouse: Dune. At this point (1986) Frank Herbert died. He'd planned Book 7 but hadn't written it. In 1999 or thereabouts the notes for this showed up and Kevin J. Anderson and Brian Herbert somehow extrapolated the entire Preludes of Dune and Legends of Dune trilogies and the 'Dune 7' duology from what allegeldy was less than three sides of A4. Whilst Sandworms/Hunters of Dune may indeed be what Frank Herbert planned, the earlier trilogies are very definitely not, mostly consisting of stuff KJA and BH pulled out of their asses.

OTOH, all of the material published by Christopher Tolkien is JRR Tolkien's own work. CT has never written original Middle-earth fiction or material himself. The most he's ever done is updated some of the names from the final few chapters of The Silmarillion (which JRRT had left untouched since the early 1920s) so they matched the names that JRRT had changed elsewhere. All of the other books CT has released - Unfinished Tales, that 12-volume History of Middle-earth series and Children of Hurin - is material written by his father that he simply assembled and published, sometimes with notes about where the material came from.

Quote

Correct me if i'm wrong, but is this actually the first time a series with a relatively definitive end in sight could not be finished by its original author for reasons of death?

(ie: Not the Bourne books, which Ludlum finished and the publisher ressurected for $$ as opposed to any real reason)

- Abyss, can't quite belive this has never happened...


Tolkien and Frank Herbert are the two main examples.

Mervyn Peake had planned ten Gormenghast novels but only finished two, the rought draft of the third and the first chapter of the fourth before he died. He didn't leave behind any notes for anyone else to work from either.

Isaac Asimov was planning several more books to pull together the Robots and Foundation series when he died in 1992, but never got round to writing them.
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#27 User is offline   Optimus Prime 

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 06:13 AM

Werthead is dead on, Tolkien's son only put together his father's work...he didn't create anything himself.

Tolkien actually had another story about the Fourth Age in Middle Earth but he scrapped it after a short time...I think it was called The New Shadow
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#28 User is offline   cerveza_fiesta 

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 12:49 PM

Thanks for the clarification Werthead

I just skimmed the wiki article on Herbert, but your analysis is obviously much more deatailed. rep for the effort.

So, in all, the main difference was that tolkien's son did some reorganizing and publishing, but never added anything major to the novel's content. Herbert's son actually took his notes after his father's death and wrote entire books based on the original ideas of frank.

Next question then:

Is that a bad thing really? I mean, comics have different authors and artitst that take over a franchise at different points in time, TV shows swap out authors often. Does it detract from the series ending to know the last novel is actually from the brain of a different person than the one who wrote the majority of the series?

I'm gonna say no in a plot sense, because as long as major plot elements are resolved in a clever and entertaining way, it doesn't really matter who explains it.

I'd have to say it does detract in a strict literary sense though - Like when the style of the new author is so radically different from the original author that it doesn't "feel" like a part of the series when you read it. It would be like watching the first two LOTR movies directed by Peter Jackson, and then have Return of the King directed by Tim Burton or George Lucas because of Jackson's untimely demise. The third movie just wouldn't fit stylewise even though the plot elements would all be there.
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#29 User is offline   Raymond Luxury Yacht 

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Posted 22 December 2007 - 05:20 AM

cerveza_fiesta;236624 said:

Next question then:

Is that a bad thing really?


Yes. More so with Herbert than Tolkein. This is a very bad thing.
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#30 User is offline   Optimus Prime 

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Posted 22 December 2007 - 08:46 AM

I love the Silmarillion...one of my favorite books of all time...but I wish Tolkien could have completely finished it...

It will be interesting to see how Brandon Sanderson does...because some WoT fanatics are crazy...i mean really crazy....like hunt him down like a dog and do bad things crazy if he fucks this up.

I like his Mistborn series...it's an entertaining read...but WoT is SO MUCH BIGGER...as in scope...good luck dude!
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#31 User is offline   James Hetfield 

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 03:01 PM

He can't mess it up. Some chapters were already written, and all the other chapters have extensive notes and audio tape to explain how the series will end. The only thing I would worry about from Brandon Sanderson is whether or not he can put it all into one book.

P.S. He may do the other two prequals as well.
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Posted 25 December 2007 - 04:33 PM

Obdigore;236442 said:

He was the 'daddy' of 'Us Epic Fantasy' imo, at least easily accessable epic fantasy. All the farmboy-cum-hero stories are coming from this one.



I disagree on the farmboy-becoming-hero part. That has been a standard fantasy setting for a long time, and I really doubt Robert Jordan came up with it. On the other hand I cannot say when it showed up first. It could be applied to Frodo as well.

But it wasn't Robert Jordan, since the Belgariad was written earlier than WoT.


Also, Abyss brought up an interesting point about waiting in between books. The first book I had to wait for was The Dragon Reborn (since EotW and tGH were finished already when TOR started publishing).

To me, it always felt like the series went downhill after book 5. That may have been influenced by the waiting time, because when I did a full reread last year it didn't feel as bad as it did before (even the circus stuff). I still think that at some point after book 5 RJ lost control of the plot advancement, but the latest books seem to have picked up the pieces well enough. I wish Brandon Sanderson all the best in finishing the series.
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#33 User is offline   Skywalker 

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 08:22 PM

The only two books I REALLY lost patience with were Path of Daggers (8) and Crossroads of Twilight (10)... I actually liked 9 - though it reads better on a re-read than a first pass. And I thought the end of 7 was pretty awesome.
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#34 User is offline   Durhang 

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 03:34 AM

I found that up to seven, reading one after another, was great. After that, it became more about which arcs you like and reading for them. My only issue with WoT overall, and I love the series anyway, is that RJ seemed to leave so many arcs unresolved and just drag them on through to the end of the series, that it is why it all slowed down I guess. All power to Brandon in his task; so many loose ends to tie up.
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#35 User is offline   Zelech 

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 09:30 PM

Durhang;237153 said:

I found that up to seven, reading one after another, was great. After that, it became more about which arcs you like and reading for them. My only issue with WoT overall, and I love the series anyway, is that RJ seemed to leave so many arcs unresolved and just drag them on through to the end of the series, that it is why it all slowed down I guess. All power to Brandon in his task; so many loose ends to tie up.


Well put.

In retro-spect, I agree with others when they say that the editor should have made some cuts to 7-10, and the filler % increased by each book release. It's not all bad filler, but it is what it is--filler--when books 1-6 had been so action-packed and flowing.

I think Brandon Sanderson has the talent/ability to wrap it up. To do that, though, I think he'll have to be firm about letting some side-plots either fizzle or be more-quickly resolved than was Jordan's intent. I think Sanderson hinted at just that in his blog.
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Posted 23 January 2008 - 04:52 PM

holy crap

Spoiler


that is the best thing that's happened in this book so far. I wondered when the white tower story was going to pick up and get interesting again. Elaidia is such a hag...sweet that:

Spoiler


can't wait to start book 5
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#37 User is offline   Yellow 

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 06:06 PM

Oh god, did that story line start in book 4? Damn, that man knew how to drag a plot out. Wait until you get to the story line about

Spoiler


I think that one went on for two hundred actual years.
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#38 User is offline   stone monkey 

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 06:26 PM

The first one I had to wait for was also The Dragon Reborn and I'd say that book 4 was the zenith of the series' progression - 5 & 6 are done well enough, but the potential shown in 4 was definitely being squandered by that point.
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#39 User is offline   Skywalker 

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 06:28 PM

As said before by many (and me), its ok going until 7... 8 is the nadir, 9 ok, 10 the second nadir (seventh circle of hell, actually) and 11 is good
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#40 User is offline   Optimus Prime 

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 07:35 PM

Yellow;247336 said:

Oh god, did that story line start in book 4? Damn, that man knew how to drag a plot out. Wait until you get to the story line about

Spoiler


I think that one went on for two hundred actual years.


Hell yeah man, I agree. That was agonizing.

I also didn't like how RJ dragged certain plotlines on...even when finishing and wrapping them up would have improved the overall pace of the story.

Still, I enjoy WoT...and am eager to see how BS ties it all up.
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