[Ammanas]

One thing I don't get(and maybe it hasnt been explained yet) is why Tay refutes ST's claim of not fearing Temper at the end of Bonehunters. I was hoping NOK would provide the answer but no such luck. Also, I'm sorta confused why ST/Dancer possessed Apsalar as an instrument of revenge against Laseen at the beginning of GOTM. Why didn't Dancer simply kill her? He seems capable enough.

[Spindrift]

As for Cotillon/apsalar, it's not clear at all that that was his reason for posessing her. That seems to have been a smokescreen.
Whatever the plan was, it was aborted when the rope was forced out of her (if that wasn't the actual plan in the first place, to create a mortal with some of dancers skills and inclinations)

I don't know about Temper, i can't remember that bit.

[Aptorian]

james9700;225646 said:

One thing I don't get(and maybe it hasnt been explained yet) is why Tay refutes ST's claim of not fearing Temper at the end of Bonehunters. I was hoping NOK would provide the answer but no such luck.

I wish you'd explain a bit more about what you mean when you ask a question. Cause I don't remember ST and Tays exact conversation.

Are you asking why ST was afraid of Temper? Temper is the new guardian of the Azath. Arguably the most powerfull creature on Malaz right now, at least when close to the azath. Besides the Azath being hungry for ascendants Temper has a personal grudge with ST and Dancer.

Dancer asked/made Temper help out at the Azath fight between the cult and Lasseens troops and that mercenary group. The cult cheated him and left him to fend for himself against what ever went on in the grounds, ending with Temper becoming a guardian of the Azath for all eternity.

james9700;225646 said:

Also, I'm sorta confused why ST/Dancer possessed Apsalar as an instrument of revenge against Laseen at the beginning of GOTM. Why didn't Dancer simply kill her? He seems capable enough.

There's schemes within schemes here. We thought that Dancer, in the guise of Sorry, was supposed to one day get close enough to stab Lasseen, mean while he was able to spy and sabotage stuff in the empire.

The two gods couldn't just walk onto malaz island and destroy the town and the empress because of the "ascendant convergence" rule. When Ascendants do bad stuff it makes a presedent, allowing other gods to overthrow other empires, etc. Ascendants and other bad things are drawn when power is unleashed.

Also the question is whether Cot could just have killed her that easily. Lasseen is unproven in strength, she has Tayscren as a shaved knuckle, she has weapons made out of Ottataral, etc.

Now it seems that Sorry was not ment to destroy the empire, rather she was hitching a ride, watching the events at Pale (imagine if she had got her hands on dragnipur) and eventually she would have travelled with the 9th to Coral and would have assisted against Panion.

[Skywalker]

I think what happens in NoK is that ST claims he isn't afraid of Temper, but Tay pooh-poohs him. That is because he really is afraid of Temper. (My memory might be failing me... )

On ST and Cot's manipulations of Sorry I am not so sure at all.

I think it was a genuine scheme to get back at Surly, but that does not make sense because it is clear in NoK that ST and Cot didn't really care about losing control over the Empire really - they were interested in bigger (and hitherto unknown) aims and games. Still, if revenge was their game, a kind of afterthought once they became gods, the possession makes sense... and the plot failed because Rake intervened.

But if not...

It is not a coincidence that Sorry enlisted with the BBs - she asked to be. So ST/ Cotillion definitely wanted to be active on Genabackis, which in turn could indicate many things - ST and Cot wanted to be involved with Rake, or were interested in the return of the Tyrant, or had a clue that the CG would show himself there via the Pannion Domin.

Or maybe they just wanted to create an uber assassin from scratch... a sort of mortal Cotillion for use in their future schemes...

They did use Apsalar (and her father) effectively during the Path of Hands episode, and later to clear up several enemies on Seven Cities... She also ended up decimating the Claw, which Cotillion wouldn't mind.

[Aptorian]

They were not aware what would happen when Cot left Apsalars body. Cotillion was disturbed about the effect his possession had on her.

[Dolorous Menhir]

edit: there are spoilers up to the BH in this reply.

james9700;225646 said:

One thing I don't get(and maybe it hasnt been explained yet) is why Tay refutes ST's claim of not fearing Temper at the end of Bonehunters. I was hoping NOK would provide the answer but no such luck.

Not sure what you are asking here. ST said that he feared nothing. Tays said words to the effect of "but you ran away from Temper, so you must fear him at least!" ST response was (in essence) "I only ran away because it was more convenient."

I'm not sure how you get your question from that. ST said he feared nothing, Tays brought up an example of something he demonstrably does fear and ST denied it. That's the opposite of what you describe in your question, so maybe that's why you don't understand what happened. The conversation you are asking about is considered in depth here, for a slightly different reason.

Quote

Also, I'm sorta confused why ST/Dancer possessed Apsalar as an instrument of revenge against Laseen at the beginning of GOTM. Why didn't Dancer simply kill her? He seems capable enough.

Suggestions in GotM that Sorry was to kill Laseen and take the throne in her place.

Use of Sorry? Plausible deniability for the Shadow Lords, perhaps. As noted above, they did not want to be seen turning the Malazan Empire into a plaything for ascendants, and they did not want to their actions to identify them as Kellanved & Dancer ascended. Further, they wanted to do more important things than just waste Laseen for revenge. I think they wanted to engineer the end of her rule, not just of her life.

Motive? They were angry at Laseen for overthrowing them.

Two explanations for why this doesn't really make sense in the context of the rest of the series:

1) The motive is a GotMism, as K & D do not demonstrate this hostility to Laseen or anger over their "deaths" in the later books. Quite the opposite, since "dying" was part of their plan for ascension, and it is even possible that Laseen has been in collusion with them the whole time.

2) As noted above, there are plans within plans. The failed Sorry plot may have had deeper implications and hidden objectives. The creation of Apsalar is certainly the most obvious consequence, though I cannot see that as a predicted outcome. Who knows the true intent of Shadowthrone plans?

[Ammanas]

Possible multi volume spoilers below:





Ok, I admit my question was too vague. My assumption was ST's denial of fear was a lie--I thought maybe Temper held a grudge because of how the Sword ended its last mission. If ST/Dancer weren't off azath hopping, then Surly wouldnt have been in a position to decide the Sword had outlived its usefulness. This leads me to believe that ST/Dancer want Surly dead or gone, not for revenge, but because she's a world class IDIOT. I don't see Kellanved ever finding himself in Surly's predicament at the end of Bonehunters.

Also, in GOTM, when Shadowthrone appears to Rake he alleges the possession was entirely the Rope's scheme but wilts under Rake's threat of assaulting the Shadow Realm and forcibly extracts Dancer from Apsalar.

I am starting to believe Stormy's claim is right--ST is going to be the most powerful ascendant left standing when the convergence concludes, although I am rooting for Paran to survive and thrive.

Finally, p 174 NOK, Dassem tells Ferrule and Temper he's heading west cuz "there are things he must do" and Temper will "die if he remains with me" follows along" How can he make such a claim?

In HoC, when Cutter asks him to fight the Edur, he didn't seem to be doing much of anything cept hanging out on the island. Was this all prearranged between Dassem and a god/ascendant? After the Rope kills the mages, he tells ST "traveller is there" and seems surprised by it.

[Binder of Demons]

When Dassem tells Ferrule and Temper he's heading west cuz "there are things he must do", we have no idea what he was going to do.
Dassem was already at that point if not yet exactly, certainly bordering on becoming an ascendant. He was already being worshiped as Dessembrae at this point, and was considered powerwise, to be a rival to Hood himself. So it is quite conceivable that he was going to places which would be lethal to someone not as powerful as himself. And I'm sure he just wanted his friends to deservedly enjoy their "retirement" from the army.

Many years have passed by the time we meet Traveller in HOC, so there is no telling what he was up to in the meantime. I seriously doubt he went straight to sit on an island (we are talking like nearly 10 years after the original Y'ghatan). And of course we are assuming here, that Traveller is in fact Dassem

As for Temper and Shadowthrone, it is probably a case of a healthy respect for Temper's ability. ST doesn't rarely attacks head on, and chooses his fights carefully. So while he may kill Temper, he could potentially take some serious damage along the way, and that is not ST's style when it can be avoided. In Temper you are talking about someone who managed to literally tear himself free of an Azath, and has fought beings supposedly far more powerful than himself to a standstill. I would think that Temper does hold a grudge, but his sense of honour and duty will almost always override that.

[Aptorian]

Binder of Demons;226221 said:

In Temper you are talking about someone who managed to literally tear himself free of an Azath, and has fought beings supposedly far more powerful than himself to a standstill. I would think that Temper does hold a grudge, but his sense of honour and duty will almost always override that.

The Azath was distracted and making an all out attack on everything. Temper was lucky to get free, as I recall he had help aswell.

If you're talking about the Tyrant he had the full strength of an azath to his disposel.

[Skywalker]

Aptorian;226232 said:

If you're talking about the Tyrant he had the full strength of an azath to his disposel.

Yep... I recall he felt the strength seep into him from the ground or some such

[Binder of Demons]

It's probably just being pedantic, but I don't think Temper was lucky to escape since he freed himself from the Azath by tearing the roots apart. He then went back in willingly, and yes, he felt the power from the grounds of the Azath seep into him having accepted the guardianship.
As I said previously, it's not necessarily whether ST would kill Temper, but whether he'd fear him in any way. And i think he would fear Temper to some extent because
a) Temper has a genuine reason to dislike him,
he's both stubborn and foolhardy enough to actually attack ST,
c) Temper has a track record for inflicting damage on powerful beings, A patroned Champion, A hound of Shadow, An Azath Tree, A Jaghut Tyrant. And only the last one came with the power of the azath.
So if he is still the guardian of the Deadhouse, and has that power, then even ST should fear him.

But as ST says to Tay, i think it is mostly expedience. Why risk a confrontation when it could weaken you.

[Dancer+]

Dolorous Menhir;225873 said:

Who knows the true intent of Shadowthrone plans?

There are so many different factors that could play a part in Shadowthrone's plans, we know so little about the internal balance of the pantheon for one.
However, I don't believe the plan was just the Rope's plan and that ST can be absolved of all responsibility. I personally think that the possession was undertaken because of possibilities and not necessarily because of definite certain factors, they obviously saw the possibility of need for a spy/power figure on Genabackis at the time. Maybe they wanted a spy to keep an eye on Whiskeyjack and the rest of the BB's too for one, especially once they had made the link to QB.