[Nightmare]

I have a problem with the hierachy that develops in RG. I'm refering to the part when all the sergeants defer superiority to Fiddler.

For me, I would have thought Gesler would be the obvious leader.

During the prologue of GotM, Fiddler is described as being not much older than the child Paran. At that time I'm led to believe that Gesler was a high ranked officer of sorts, although I could be wrong.

So - notwithstanding the fact that he was a Bridgeburner - why was a younger, less experienced, Fiddler, giving rank over an older, practically-Ascended Gesler?

[Illuyankas]

Because he's awesome, and Gesler's lazy. Next!

[Aptorian]

Also there's some controversy surrounding fiddlers age along with his affiliation to WJ.

In the Raraku story told to Rake by WJ, WJ hardly knows Fiddler, he's just a new soldier.

But according to another story Fid helped WJ free his sister Dunsparrow from Hoods temple. This was supposedly before she ran away to find a king, which she did when she was... ten?

i don't know how old dunsparrow is in BH or how she got her position but basically it sounds like Fiddler is around 40, he's old for a soldier.

Back on topic. Gesler shy's away from responsibility, I think he's been doing that ever since Feners cult was forbidden.

Fiddler has the experience, know how and reputation to lead with out having to prove anything. Any one who's worked in a group environment knows that there's some people you'll look to or believe, despite their position or education.

[Mentalist]

Plus, Gesler, can't be in charge, he'd end up Punching Keneb in the face and being demoted to serve under Stormy....

[Elan Morin Tedronai]

He knows what he's doing, he is a BB (which counts for a LOT imo), hence age doesn't matter.

[Abyss]

Just off the cuff...

Gesler has been avoiding command. Fid actually volunteered for it.

Some troops distrust Gesler because of the weird skin thing and the Fener thing. Most troops pretty much worship Fid as a former BB.

Gesler is a former commander of some sort. Fid is 'from the ranks'.

- Abyss, taste great, less filling...

[Bent]

No, Fiddler has his reputation of being a BB, but sergents (sp?.) follow him because he survives, and is a close personal friend to High Mage Quick Ben.... and hangs out with an assassin, and can read the future in a Deck of Dragons...sure he's probably younger than Gesler, but in GotM WhiskeyJack might have been a high fist, no matter the age diff between him and Dujek, but he stepped back, just like Gesler, content to lay back and lead from behind. In my humble opinion.

[Crow Clan Baby]

It's somewhere in HoC, Fiddler is confirmed to be a hell of a lot older than he looks (and he looks about early 40s there). The whole "young Fiddler" thing is definitely a GotM-ism; it's even possible he may have been around during the rise of Kellanved.

The whole "Reputation as a Bridgeburner" is definitely a major factor too. These are people who have been there, done that, a lot of the time in the most atrocious circumstances, and lived to tell the tale.

[Mentalist]

Umm... prolly not the rise of Kellanved: Fiddler was recruited after Malazans took Falar Islands. And that didn't happen untill after they conquered all of Quon Tali. And from Falar they went almost immidiately into 7C (give or take a year that Fiddler spent on Malaz under Braven Tooth)....

but yeah, the whole Dunsparrow thing makes everything confusing... Incidentallly, do we know, what's WJ's ethnic background?

[Dolorous Menhir]

The Fiddler-Dunsparrow-Whiskeyjack backstory is a mess, it's a subject best put to one side.

Just treat Fiddler and Whiskeyjack as middle-aged soldiers, anywhere from 40 to 60 in age. The evidence from the later books far outweighs the GotM prologue evidence, which puts both Fid and WJ in their teens or early twenties roughly ten years before the main series.

Dunsparrow definitely appears to be in her 20's, so there's no way to reconcile that with the fact that Whiskeyjack and Fid should've been longtime veterans serving on faraway continents when she was a child.

Back to the earlier question. Gesler may have held high rank in the Emperor's time, but he's not a notorious figure and the modern rank-and-file don't know him. Fiddler is a Bridgeburner, the only one still in active service, veteran of many famous campaigns, pioneering sapper. He's a living legend.

[Elan Morin Tedronai]

That is the key here I think, he is a living legend.

"Picking himself up from the buckled rooftop, Bottle stared across at those three soldiers. Didn't know one of them except that he was a sapper. And a damned Bridgeburner.
Beside him, Koryk, groaned, then spat. 'Look at 'em,' he said.
Bottle nodded.
And, oddly enough, for all the soldiers in the squad, nothing more about it needed saying."

Basically, this says it all I think

[Aptorian]

I loved how that scene was written aswell.

For all that wasn't said so much was told in that silence, turns me into a blubbering woman.

[Cougar]

I'm struggling here guys, when I was reading RG I had to re-read some bits because I had always assumed that Fid was in his 40s, which seems reasonable considering how active he is, if he was older I think he would struggle to do much more.

However, I had to rethink because I realised that the only references we have to Fiddlers age indicate he is only late 20s, yes he's a veteran but clearly even if he were say, 28 he could have easily been a soldier for as many as 13ish years.

Can't find the damn BH book, but the idea I got from the following passage in HoC was that he was a relatively new recruit during the march through Raraku:

"Fiddler...had avoided a new name through his basic training; it had been Whiskeyjack who'd named him, on that first ride through Raraku." HoC p.302

How long ago was that?

I agree with the point above about why Gesler defers to Fid.

[Aptorian]

It was during the campaign in 7C, they'd just crushed one of the holy cities.

But there is reason to believe that Raraku also did something to the BB vitality. I think it's in HoC that Fid wonders at his own seeming young apperance, even though he is older.

[Crow Clan Baby]

Aptorian;223444 said:

It was during the campaign in 7C, they'd just crushed one of the holy cities.

But there is reason to believe that Raraku also did something to the BB vitality. I think it's in HoC that Fid wonders at his own seeming young apperance, even though he is older.

Definitely HoC, just doing a re-read at the moment and while I can't find the exact page, I remember the moment. There's also mention of him having a red beard shot through with grey, which indicates that his "young" appearance is only relatively so.

Just to clarify him "being around" when Kellanved got started, I didn't necessarily mean him being a prominent player, or even involved at all. Just "alive", which would have been a better choice of word.

[Cougar]

Crow Clan Baby;223454 said:

Definitely HoC, just doing a re-read at the moment and while I can't find the exact page, I remember the moment. There's also mention of him having a red beard shot through with grey, which indicates that his "young" appearance is only relatively so.

Well I know plenty of people with grey hair in their early 20s, and tavore has grey in her hair and she is younger than Paran.

I'm not arguing either way, but I realised I needed to seriously re-evaluate how old fiddler is, he gives the impression of 40s plus but I'm not so sure, aren't we perhaps employing modern standards of behaviour to a late medeval analogue, in which army vets would have been much younger due to life expectancy etc.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Cougar;223460 said:

Well I know plenty of people with grey hair in their early 20s, and tavore has grey in her hair and she is younger than Paran.

I'm not arguing either way, but I realised I needed to seriously re-evaluate how old fiddler is, he gives the impression of 40s plus but I'm not so sure, aren't we perhaps employing modern standards of behaviour to a late medeval analogue, in which army vets would have been much younger due to life expectancy etc.

You're not going to get anywhere taking it so seriously. Fiddler's age is another one of those timeline issues that is muddied beyond all hope of a simple answer.

Young Paran in the GotM prologue suggests that Fiddler is only a year or two older than him, and he is twelve. That would make him about 25 in the main series. I just can't accept that Fiddler is that young. If you had started to read from DG onwards, you would certainly have assumed that Fiddler was at least 40-something from his manner and thoughts.

And then there is what we know of Fiddler's military history, which stretches back - at the very least - 15-25 years. We know it stretches back farther, but I don't have hard numbers on it. That 25 is the Seven Cities campaign (5-15) + the interval until the main series (~10 years)

So the evidence is ambiguous. I think it's best to say that Fiddler is middle-aged, and leave it at that. We're unlikely to get a straight answer on that one, and we don't really need it.

SE could spend the remaining three books trying to resolve all his tortured timelines, and it would be wasted effort.

[Obdigore]

DM:

Eres'al brought him forward through time.

Deus Ex Machina, issue solved, move on.

[Cougar]

Obdigore;223498 said:

DM:

Eres'al brought him forward through time.

Deus Ex Machina, issue solved, move on.

I'll take it!

And I've got plenty of places taking it seriously so...nah nah nah na-na [blows rasberry at DM]

[Vengeance]

Didn't Fid spend a little time in a Azath. That might account for his age disparity. We know that if you spend any time in a Azath then you leave with enhanced abilities. That is just a guess though.

-Vengeance would take a little longer life....