[cerveza_fiesta]

Tavore...imo biggest mystery character (to me) in RG.

The marines don't know what to think of her, except that she may (or not) be competent, and that she may (or not) still be in league with the empress / malazan empire in general.

The regulars seem to follow her blindly despite her doing retarded things like burning transport ships and generally screwing over the most effective part of her army (if it wasn't for beak saving them that is).

She seems to make one poor tactical decision after another and somehow luck prevails and saves her and her army's hide each time. So my question, what is her deal.

-Did she really anticipate the marines' inability to subvert the edur rule by "winning the people

-Was she pulling a lasseen and trying to get rid of the marines like what we saw happen to teh BBs beneath the walls of Pale

-Does she have a clue at all?

-Does oponn get involved with her dealings as it does with Ganoes', hinting at a possible family affiliation with the twins?

-Will there ever be a hot lesbian scene with her and Lostara? Oh wait...getting off topic there....

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I know what you mean about her. She makes fuck up after fuck up and somehow is still written about as one of the heroes of the tale... that's what baffles me the most.

I can't see her being one of the bad guys though.

I can see her making a hot lesbian scene with Lostara though... getting off topic...

[Flawed]

Well!

Shes a secret military Genius.

Shes really an ascendant helping out the eresaal

She is the CG's arch nemesis

and lastly

She is the A typical butch manly one out of the lesbo couple hence the hair and manly swagger.

Sorry, off topic also there. As for Opon. No... i don't think Tavore is their porn........er pawn.

[Hume]

cerveza_fiesta;223167 said:

and that she may (or not) still be in league with the empress / malazan empire in general.

Did we read the same Book by the name of The Bonehuneters?
Tavore is most definately not in league with Laseen.

As for them oldy questions.
Me thinks.

1) Yes.
She fucked up there.
Not her fault there, sorta.
She should have done her research better on the Letheri. No one would not have expected what would have seemed from the outside an oppressed people to not rise up with people who are killing their 'oppressers' but instead try and slaughter those who are helping them.

As to whether or not if she ainticpated Hellians Idea.
I dare so No.

2) In my opinion in the grand scheme of things the Malazan army isn't really that big. 10-12 thousand or so. Losing the 'elite' part of your army is not really ideal especially this early in the game. Besides there is no 'Whiskeyjack' in the marines that would supplant Tavore as commander of the 14th. Not Fiddler, he wouldn't want it. The only two I could see in the whole army is Keneb (and I would like to think Kindly as well ). But for the whole Ganoes/Tavore thing, I dare say she will stay in charge.

3) About the Grand Scheme of things I think so (the war against the CG). As in she is quite knowledgable about warrens both the magics and the world warrens and foreign people etc. But when it comes to the here and now she is only somewhat Cluey I think.

4) I think the only Opponn affiliation with the 14th would lie with Corrab. It did seem though that the Ere's was somewhat fond of Tavore's previous lover though. That no doubt helped.

5) There damn well better be.

[Aptorian]

cerveza_fiesta;223167 said:

Tavore...imo biggest mystery character (to me) in RG.

The marines don't know what to think of her, except that she may (or not) be competent, and that she may (or not) still be in league with the empress / malazan empire in general.

The regulars seem to follow her blindly despite her doing retarded things like burning transport ships and generally screwing over the most effective part of her army (if it wasn't for beak saving them that is).

She seems to make one poor tactical decision after another and somehow luck prevails and saves her and her army's hide each time. So my question, what is her deal.

I admit to being biased, I really like the Tavore character. Think of it, she's the military/fantasy equivelant of the suddenly appointed prince in dire straits, the unproved/unsong hero believed to be destined for great things but nothing goes his way. And she's even female.

The burning ships thing was as much a scare tactic as a message to the marines. It wasn't "stupid". The Chancellor didn't think much of it but imagine the rumours spreading through the Lether army of a seemingly HUGE army on a suicide mission. The purpos "financial loss" of the ships alone would have the greedy little merchant finadds reeling. And it told the Marines that it was all or nothing, no retreat, no back-up.

cerveza_fiesta;223167 said:

-Did she really anticipate the marines' inability to subvert the edur rule by "winning the people

Of course not, this was her first and only (obvious) blunder during the Lether Campaign. They were acting on bad intel.

Dujek got himself and a hundred soldier or more killed on bad intel, Pale was a huge fnck up on the part of Tay and we still think he's a genious.

That said, I also thought sending two thirds of your force around the continent and not using them in the main assault might have been idiotic. If the Lether Mages hadn't annihilated themselves, would Sin had been enough to finish them? I think the Perish sorcery should have been the back-up.

cerveza_fiesta;223167 said:

-Was she pulling a lasseen and trying to get rid of the marines like what we saw happen to teh BBs beneath the walls of Pale

Why would she? The Bonehunters are hers, it was said in the end of BH and it was stated again in RG. They don't understand her but they understand some of what she's doing. The whole BB thing is still a mystery to me, perhaps they were ment to go or perhaps it was only WJ... who knows.

cerveza_fiesta;223167 said:

-Does she have a clue at all?

It stated that she's a superb tactician. Everything we've seen her do is the "right thing to do" seen from the intel they had. The approach on Y'ghatan was by the book, using the marines for what they are good at. The thing in Malaz was brilliantly handled and The invasion of Lether was a brilliant idea, if it had worked.

I think Tavores problem is that she needs field experience, teaching her to improvise and smell the subtle stuff that Fid and Gesler does, that aint magic, it's a veteran sixth sense...

If you mean clue CG wise, then I think T'amber/Eres'al told her all she needed to know before the end. I can't wait to see what happens in DoD.

cerveza_fiesta;223167 said:

-Does oponn get involved with her dealings as it does with Ganoes', hinting at a possible family affiliation with the twins?

No commander with half a mind would trust Oponn. They are worse than the Errant. They're Chaos and Mayhem. If Obo hadn't blown them off the island they'd probably had caused the 14th destruction and a catastrophe worse than what happened in the Mouse.

cerveza_fiesta;223167 said:

-Will there ever be a hot lesbian scene with her and Lostara? Oh wait...getting off topic there....

You didn't read those 15 pages with illustrations in the second book of RG... or was that only in my copy?

[Bent]

I think that the major problem people(i.e. the readers) have with Tavore, is the fact that she doesn't spout off every plan she has in the works, like her brother Paran does. I picked up alot from the Feslin storyline, about when they were kids how tavore kept to herself, and planned mass battles etc. I 'm pretty sure she's doing what any good commander would do, plan, take action, and expect to give zero answers to your underlings, they should just follow orders. But she is human,and on only a couple of occasions has she let her emotions slip through. No one ever doubted Dujek One Arms command, and I can only recall him giving orders to WhiskeyJack. I may be wrong but I think Tavore might be the next Empress, with little Paran as her Dujek. and Lostara as her.....

[cerveza_fiesta]

@apt

I didnt mean mystery as a bad thing. I like her character too and I'm interested to see how it turns out.

I do think the burning ships thing seemed a bit excessive, but when you think about it in the context of sending a message to the letherii it makes more sense. It just seems a terribly de-moralizing thing to do to your troops, even though the marines just sucked it up and fought anyway.

Also, where does it state she's a superb tactician. I thought that was always a point of contention among the troops...like some of them don't know what the hell she's on about, while others have faith in their commandress.

My new question perhaps sums up my other questions (except the last one)

Was this whole invasion including tavore's tactics part of some grand scheme because she has some sort of insight / ability that we don't know about?

-OR-

Is Tavore just an ordinary military commander with limited experience and a touch of luck doing the best she can given some pretty horrible circumstances?

I'm leaning toward the latter, but I don't know.

[ch'arlz]

cerveza_fiesta;223242 said:

Was this whole invasion including tavore's tactics part of some grand scheme because she has some sort of insight / ability that we don't know about?

Yes. Can't offer evidence right now, but I've felt this for sometime.

[Aptorian]

cerveza_fiesta;223242 said:

Also, where does it state she's a superb tactician. I thought that was always a point of contention among the troops...like some of them don't know what the hell she's on about, while others have faith in their commandress.

The soldiers are always grumbling. As Bent said above already as a child she was playing wargames. I think it's said both in DG and HoC before we get to see her skills, that she's perhaps the greatest untried tactician. Tavore should probably had served as an aid for a High Fist or as lower level officer for a couple of years, getting groomed for her position, but Lassen was in a jam even before DG.

All the talent is gone and the empress is left with an empire run by corrupt officials, incompetent nobility and players out for her throne. Lassen could trust Tavore, after what the adjunct willingly did to her own family, and she took a gamle sending her to 7C.

This actually leads back to what was said above. Is Tavore still a part of the Empire? is she still loyal to Lassen?

I think she's loyal to Lassen. But against the Empire that is developing through the machinations of Rel and Dom. I think a understanding of the situation occured between Lasseen and Kalam and Tavore in throneroom. Lasseen was playing the game in front of the two new players that were sitting in the room, either Kalam killed them or she would have to do as they expected. Lest she die herself or throw the empire into chaos.

cerveza_fiesta;223242 said:

My new question perhaps sums up my other questions (except the last one)

Was this whole invasion including tavore's tactics part of some grand scheme because she has some sort of insight / ability that we don't know about?

-OR-

Is Tavore just an ordinary military commander with limited experience and a touch of luck doing the best she can given some pretty horrible circumstances?

I think she an ordinary military commander playing her part in a grand scheme.

[Shurque's biatch]

ch said:

Yes. Can't offer evidence right now, but I've felt this for sometime.

I agree. I think that when/if we find out more about the whys and wherefores of her decisions we will have the same debates that we are having now about Tay.

Her reluctance to entrust herself to her troops is because she knows how bad it is going to get and that she must use some/all of them as pawns in a greater game.

Aptorian said:

I think she an ordinary military commander playing her part in a grand scheme.

I don't totally agree. As I said above about Tay, I bet we will come to see some brilliance that has been restrained by her having to walk a tightrope.

[Aptorian]

I guess I could have formulated that a bit better.

I ment she's just a mortal, brilliant, but only human, participating in a war between gods.

[Dancer+]

Apt would you mind being Tavore? Random question, but I wonder if anyone would despise to be in her shoes, or whether they would relish it or whether they just want some lesbian action

[Aptorian]

Waaaayyy to much responsibility. I'd crumble like the little girl I am under such pressure.

Her position is something you're raised to do or you learn gradualy through ambition and skill.

I've tried running the faculty parties at uni and that alone was soul destroying... of course back then I didn't have the option of crucifying any slackers or rebellious elements, which must be a perk.

[Illuyankas]

I think she's more competent than Laseen. Which, to be fair, is not hard.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think Tavore is one of my favourite characters. The tiny glimpses of her personality are wonderful, and I love that she is still an enigma.

There was one point where it was described that she has been a student of military history. I can't remember how that came about, but I'm thinking it must have been Ganoes talking or thinking. She was studying a famous battle waged by a D'Avore, of an earlier generation than Prince Kazz. The Parans come from the same continent and noble tradition as the D'Avore family.

I think Tavore is competent, but she is not totally confident in herself. There have been suggestions that she is not comfortable with leading, or with being responsible for so much. But it is all hidden depths with her.

[Mentalist]

It was Felisin thinking back to when she would spy on the big sister whom she adored...
Tavore is an interesting charactr to say the least, and we have lost the one small insight into her head once Gamet died...
And I am ridiculously curios as to how much does she actually know about the big picture....

[Aptorian]

Dolorous Menhir;223418 said:

I think Tavore is competent, but she is not totally confident in herself. There have been suggestions that she is not comfortable with leading, or with being responsible for so much. But it is all hidden depths with her.

I remember this aswell. I think it was when she game them their name, the bonehunters, and Gammet or keneb remarks something like "we're yours now, heart and soul" and he see's in her eyes that she can't repay that trust or rather they shouldn't trust her.

But this I think might have all been swept aside after the night in Malaz.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Aptorian;223420 said:

I remember this aswell. I think it was when she game them their name, the bonehunters, and Gammet or keneb remarks something like "we're yours now, heart and soul" and he see's in her eyes that she can't repay that trust or rather they shouldn't trust her.

But this I think might have all been swept aside after the night in Malaz.

I thought about that, though I couldn't remember the exact quote. They all thought she was great after Ygatan and all that, but in RG they all seemed to doubt her again.

fickle armies....

[Bent]

Dolorous Menhir;223418 said:

I think Tavore is one of my favourite characters. The tiny glimpses of her personality are wonderful, and I love that she is still an enigma.

There was one point where it was described that she has been a student of military history. I can't remember how that came about, but I'm thinking it must have been Ganoes talking or thinking. She was studying a famous battle waged by a D'Avore, of an earlier generation that Prince Kazz. The Parans come from the same continent and noble tradition as the D'Avore family.

I think Tavore is competent, but she is not totally confident in herself. There have been suggestions that she is not comfortable with leading, or with being responsible for so much. But it is all hidden depths with her.

this was the memory of feslin. the end of the rebelion in Deadhouse Gates...i'm pretty sure.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Bent;223423 said:

this was the memory of feslin. the end of the rebelion in Deadhouse Gates...i'm pretty sure.

Ok thanks, I was thinking it had to be a sibling and I picked the wrong one.