[q21]

A classic medevil crossbow could not do all that SE describes as many people have pointed out. That said, a modern crossbow, made with modern day metrials could very well punch through sheet metal and if not throw people of their feet they would spin you around if you were shot in the shoulder, for example.

As far as the crossbow throwing the shooter over if it's going to have a similar effect on the target is only true if the shooter is perfectly rigid. There is a lot to be said for bracing oneself for recoil and the shock absorbing effects of bending joints.

[Fiddler]

well, this is actually a cool topic. However, let's not forget that this is an army in a fantasy world and if you were one of those marines wouldn't you get your standard issue crossbow blessed at every single shrine and temple you happened to pass by as long as no one caught you at it? Or perhaps a little investment by the squadmage? Uhm, One other thing, a tad of personal experience here, when people die, they do all sorts of things, sometimes they fall over, sometimes they jump up and down. Sometimes they jump straight backward from the area of the shot, kinda like getting away from the wasp that stung you.

[Seed]

Actually having used both crossbows and english style longbows (albeit of low poundage) as a medieval re-enactor I can say this...

The push from a firing crossbow actually jerks forward almost in your hands given the string moving forward and them stopping suddenly as the quarrel releases, it's the weirdest feeling from what I remember. Crossbows punch fast and fall short when it comes to range, it sounds and looks impressive when it first fires, and then it struggles and plops onto the ground 10-15 metres away and you go doh (I only had a 150pound crossbow, whereas I can shoot 25-30metres with only a 30 pound longbow without trying or arcing the shot excessively). It's really damn hard to aim a bow super accurate unless you've had years of practice and a crossbow is literally point and click.

Considering that most of the malazan marines would be firing them in combat at relatively short ranges, they would punch through armour reasonably enough. Remember that most plate armour is only going to be 3mm thick over most places and maybe 5mm or so for helms at best, you'd need to be pretty close for that, but chainmail seperates under such pointy force as an arrow, even if it is riveted, it's best for slashing and blunt impact over large areas so you could shoot from further for that and still get pentration.

It's very hard to tell what sort of poundage they're using for their crossbows, we know the fiddlers crosswbow has metal arms so it's gonna be big, he must have arms like tree trunks and wear gloves to pull that one for firing without a winch.

The one thing I am sceptical about is the cusser or sharper weight placed onto the end of a bolt, but then they're hardly designed to penetrate armour, all it needs to do is lob a sharper far enough away to detonate safely, the bolts must be counterweighted out the wazzoo on the feather/vane end to stop the quarrel flipping when fired.

I agree with Fiddler in that alot of the movement from being shot is actually the reaction of the person jerking from the shock of injury more than the force of the blow pushing them, but still, if you're within say 15 metres you're completely screwed. Having been shot at with combat blunts( they have little rubber stoppers and large flight feathers to drag a bit) and 30 pound longbows while wearing a gambeson and chainmail shirt there is still quite a bit of force to the blow. I can only image an actual sharp arrow from a combat poundage longbow (upwards of several hundred pounds) would punch right through you with minimal problems. Quarrels tend to be half or a third as short as arrows. Unless they lodged on a bone or some of your armour you wouldn't be spun around, because all the force it going through you as the head punched out your back. Ummm...there was more stuff but I've forgotten what I was gonna say so I'll leave it at that for now. What was the original question again?

-Seed ...is struggling with the details this soon after waking up.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

This was fairly enlightening. Still, despite the cries of SE spicing up his work, I would imagine the man has also done his research on the topic. I doubt that he is going very far over the edge; all of the crossbows that I remember being fired in the series were always at short range.

[Silencer]

One thing that hasn't really been brought up yet, despite all the talk of physics and math, is material - an arrow is quite likely to be wooden (in the time period, these days they are all sorts of composite stuff), whereas a crossbow bolt would be a metal of some sort, probably iron in this case. This could also have a large effect on the relative mass and whatnot....

[Seed]

I've seen pictures of period quarrels people have dug up as well as manuscripts and it appears that they have (had) a short wooden haft, but the head is quite large lengthwise and the socket as it were overlaps down the shaft quite a bit, like metal cladding almost. Leather or feather vanes. I haven't heard or read of full metal quarrels but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if they existed, however the weight as Silencer mentions would be the prime concern, with how to attach the feathers/vanes being the next one. Not to mention the amount of effort and metal in making them compared to just whipping out half a dozen socketed heads and shafting them. The metal would bend with impact, they'd be constantly hammering them straight so they fly true. Hmmm now thinking further on it I think they'd be more effort than their worth.

[Apsalar Shadowdancer]

Dolorous Menhir;221964 said:

Cerveza beat me to the physics, and he has it right. Being hit by a projectile such as we are discussing does not throw you backwards.

An additional point:

Think in terms of the push a projectile gives when it hits something. That push derives from the energy of the projectile. That energy is always lower on impact than when it was fired, due to friction.

Go back to when it was fired: the projectile was given a "push" by the firing mechanism. A corresponding push goes backwards into that mechanism, and the person who used it.

Long story short, the push on the shooter is greater than the push on the shot. So if the shot person is thrown backwards, then the shooter should have been too.

not true as most people firing a xbow would be in a power position (aka very stable, legs staggered perhaps kneeling on one leg) and the people being shot would be standing casually or balancing on horseback.


also i am 100% sure that if i was shot with a arrow that i would react in some random way. Be it that i spun to avoid it, even tho i had already been hit, jumped back or fell to the ground. The momentum physics you and beer party are talking about do not count human reaction and assume a closed system between dart and target.

[Clip]

I don't think we v=can use examples of medieval crossbows in comparison to Malazan crossbows. The crossbows that the marines used were a whole lot more advanced than Agincourt-era crossbows. Technology on those times was still... well... crap. The crossbow that the marines use is first of all, made almost entirely of iron. The spring constant of iron is most likely higher than wood. That would mean that there would be lot more force behind each shot.

For those non-physics types out there, the spring constant is k in the equation F=kx F being force, and x being the distance that the material is stretched. The higher the k or the x, the higher the F

Also, proper plate armor was very hard to penetrate. The reason main cause of death for knights in plate armor was not being stabbed through the armor it was the shock wave that passes through the body when the armor is hit with a blunt weapon. Like the flat end of a pike.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Apsalar Shadowdancer;222096 said:

not true as most people firing a xbow would be in a power position (aka very stable, legs staggered perhaps kneeling on one leg) and the people being shot would be standing casually or balancing on horseback.

True, I didn't address that. But I don't think it's important. I'm saying that crossbows don't throw people around like that, so bracing yourself isn't needed to counteract it.

Where is Dassem Ultor?;222061 said:

This was fairly enlightening. Still, despite the cries of SE spicing up his work, I would imagine the man has also done his research on the topic. I doubt that he is going very far over the edge; all of the crossbows that I remember being fired in the series were always at short range.

The assassins in GotM were shooting at people over significant ranges. But there was no suggestion at that point that the people shot would be thrown all over the place.

[cerveza_fiesta]

@Apsalar

Yep, DM beat me to it this time. My post above simply deals with momentum transfer. I'm saying that in a perfect situation of rigid body impacting rigid body (no sexual pun intended ya pervs) there just isn't enough momentum in a flying quarrel / bolt to knock an edur back. Any such reaction would definitely be a spasming of the body as a reaction to pain, surprise and devastating injury. DM was right though, if a crossbow truly did have enough punch to knock someone over, you'd expect it to buck like a shotgun or rifle on the shooter's end. Seed above, having fired one says it actually pulls you forward when the spring snaps to a halt, further reinforcing the idea that a realistic quarrel at realistic velocity just doesn't have enough momentum to bowl over enemies.

@silencer

That's a good topic for research. I always thought they were wood, given the ones I've seen in museums, but its certainly conceivable that a quarrel would be all metal. Especially in the winch-loaded xbows. Your standard hand-pulled xbow would definitely lack the spring power to fire a metal quarrel at effective velocity, but with a winch pulling a several hundred pound spring back, a metal quarrel would really be devastating.

@Where is Dassem Ultor?

No cries here...I like a "spicy" read. Its like watching "predator" versus watching actual vietnam footage. Real guns just don't do what the movie ones do and aren't nearly as "fun" to watch. This topic is more of a general xbow discussion. I wondered if a real xbow really has the capability of SE's fantasy ones or if he is in fact enhancing them.