[Veilside]

Re-reading through RG I had a thought about the spear that Seren Pedac finds in the ice, from Clip and Silchas Ruin's reaction to it, on page 336 of the trade paperback.

Quote

She frowned at him. 'You speak as if you recognise it. Do you?
'Let's just say it belongs with us'
...
'Do no mock it,' Silchas Ruins said 'Use it in the manner the Acquitor has suggested, by all means. But know that it is not yours. You will have to surrender it - know that, Udinaas.'
'Surrender it - to you, perchance'
Again the flinch. 'No.' and Silchas Ruin turned away once more.

I also recall reading something where Gothos' ritual is described as a "spear of ice", I believe those were the words used but I can't seem to find it at the moment. I think there might be a connection between the ritual and the spear, something like the spear being used as the centerpoint of the ritual.
We already know that Gothos has used Imass objects as a Finnest so why not something to aid him in preparing his ritual.
If anyone could find that quote it'd probably help a lot too.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[Aptorian]

At first I thought it was a not very logical foreshadowing of the eventual clash between the party and Trull.

I don't remember the spears description. Is it an Imass spear?

[Veilside]

Aptorian;218098 said:

At first I thought it was a not very logical foreshadowing of the eventual clash between the party and Trull.

I don't remember the spears description. Is it an Imass spear?

Yeah it is, and SE seems to go into quite a lot of detail to describe it.

Quote

The shaft, long as Seren was tall, ws not wood. Polished, mottled, amber and brown, it looked almost...scaled. The broad head was of one piece, blade and stem, ground jade, milky smooth and leaf shaped. No obvious glue or binding held the socket onto the shaft.

and some more description, then...

Quote

He shrugged, spinning the damned chain back and forth. 'That spear you found. It's T'lan Imass.'

[Dolorous Menhir]

Thanks for that post Veilside, I was about to declare it was a Tiste Edur spear (because why would Silchas Ruin react to an Imass spear in that manner?).

Since we know it's a T'lan Imass one, that complicates things.

A few points:

- Silchas Ruin was not in the world of the Imass for very long before his imprisonment in the Azath. I don't believe he had any contact with Imass before Scabby's betrayal.

- At the time of that betrayal, in the MT prologue, it is certain that the Tellann Ritual had not occurred yet.

- So, Ruin must have learned of this T'lan Imass spear during his involuntary holiday. Why then would it provoke such a strong reaction in him? I don't know.

It's true, when you first read that passage you immediately thought "Trull's getting that spear!" But that theory got stabbed in the back.

That reminds me - we all assumed that the spear the Soldier of Death left with Cutter in BH was going to Trull too. What's the new thinking on that one?

[Veilside]

I really need to find that quote where Gothos' ritual is mentioned as being a spear of ice, could be completely unrelated but it really stuck out when I re-read the book.
Are you sure about the Tellan ritual not having happened yet during the MT prologue?
If it had already happened it would explain Mael's comment about how strange Gothos' choice of finnest was.

[Dolorous Menhir]

There was no mention of the Ritual in the MT prologue. Scabby refers to the Imass (note, not T'lan) as weak. The Jaghut do not appear to be involved in a racial war, and I think Scabby would have more respect for the Imass if they had already committed racial suicide just so they could kill more Jaghut. (Scabby is promptly shown to be poorly informed and arrogant, but I still think he would've taken note of something on the order of the Tellan Ritual).

The MT prologue appears to occur in a past much more distant that the Tellan Ritual. The Ritual is the earliest dated event (~300,000 pre-BS). I like to think of it as marking the start of the modern era, when the Imass and their descendants took over. The MT prologue certainly falls into an earlier period, when the KCCM & FA were still present & active, and the Imass were backward bystanders ("what can their weapons of stone do against our iron," says Scabby).

I realise none of that is absolute proof. But I think it is persuasive.

[Veilside]

Ok, that makes a bit more sense, but I'm still wondering if there's any significance to that spear, just because of that quote I can't find at the moment and from SR's reaction to it.

[acarl]

some other proof I'd offer you as far as it not having happened yet is:

We know the ritual happened on the Lether continent, a continent Gothos sealed death from, which neatly ties into the ritual.

[Aptorian]

acarl;218204 said:

some other proof I'd offer you as far as it not having happened yet is:

We know the ritual happened on the Lether continent, a continent Gothos sealed death from, which neatly ties into the ritual.

I don't think it's that simple. The ritual was ment to wipe away the scene of the battle with the KCCM and the betrayal of Ruin.

This was way North-west that took place. The Awl plains lay far to the east. It's not certain that the ice came that far. Why should it?

About the times of the Exodus, I also thought that it was an indication that we don't hear of "thriving" civilizations of Jaghut. I think they had still to rise to their glory before the wars begin with the Imass.

I always think of the time of the betrayal as around 400-500.000 years ago.

[Silencer]

Aptorian;218219 said:

I don't think it's that simple. The ritual was meant to wipe away the scene of the battle with the KCCM and the betrayal of Ruin.

I always thought that the Ritual was to preserve the 'lessons of the past' or something, not to wipe it away.

The whole spear thing didn't really relate, in my mind, to the ritual. It was an Imass spear, and it was meant to go to Trull....and I think that's all it was. There are some other possibilities, but none really make too much sense - as has been noted, the timelines for the Ritual tie-in don't really match/work properly, and there isn't really much else to consider. Except for the T'lan someone (Udinaas?) sensed in MT - it could be one of their spears, and they would probably have gone to the continent in order to destroy the ritual, hence it's presence inside the ritual area.

-Silencer, thinks Apt double-posted

[Dag]

Veilside;218142 said:

I really need to find that quote where Gothos' ritual is mentioned as being a spear of ice, could be completely unrelated but it really stuck out when I re-read the book.

The only reference to a "spear of ice" I can think of is the one at the beginning of the first chapter of MT:

"There is a spear of ice, newly thrust into the heart
of the land. The soul within it yearns to kill. He
who grasps the spear will know death. Again
and again, he shall know death."
Hannan Mosag's Vision
(MT, mppb pg. 34)

But I don't think this is related to the Gothos' ritual... Will do some more research.

[Lancelot]

True Dag but thats a reference to the sengars trip into the wastes to collect Withals sword.

"Newly thrust into the heart of the land" - Brand new.

"The soul within it yearns to kill." - The sword/soul within.

"Again and again, he will know death." - Rhulad.

[GardenGnome]

But it somehow doesn't make sense. I mean, the description of the spear doesn't sound Imass, at least not to me. It sounds more like some sort of draconic weapon, created of or from a dragon - but that's just silly :-

[Veilside]

GardenGnome;218266 said:

But it somehow doesn't make sense. I mean, the description of the spear doesn't sound Imass, at least not to me. It sounds more like some sort of draconic weapon, created of or from a dragon - but that's just silly :-

And i'm 99% certain there's talk of a spear of ice in RG, not MT.

[Aptorian]

I remember obsidian being mentioned as being used by other races among them perhaps... tiste andii? but that would have had to have been early KG days so what the hell would it be doing on Lether, ay?

[Aptorian]

Veilside;218269 said:

And i'm 99% certain there's talk of a spear of ice in RG, not MT.

not a spar of ice? I don't even know what a spar is but it shows up agin here and there in SEs stuff.

IMHO I think this is just another weird detail that SE throws into the mix to keep things mysterious, there's no solution.

[Veilside]

Here we go, conversation between Silchas Ruin and the Onyx Wizards, page 209.

Quote

As for the glaciers bound in the highest reaches of the mountains of Bluerose - those to the North - well, they have already begun their migration. Unmindful of the distant ocean's assault, they draw power from a wayward flow of cold air. These glaciers, Wizards, still hold the spear of the ritual, and soon it will drive for you heart.

That wording to me just makes the spear quite significant. Could just be nothing though.

[Veilside]

And even more interesting, page 210.

Quote

You speak of a spear of ice, of Omtome Phellack's very core, still living, still powerful. That spear, Silchas Ruin, casts a shadow, and it is within that shadow that you will find what you seek.

[Aptorian]

Veilside;218320 said:

And even more interesting, page 210.

Perhaps the stonedagger Ulshun Prahl carried was made from the tip of a spear.

Meaning the Finnest was originally a spearhead?

[Veilside]

Aptorian;218321 said:

Perhaps the stonedagger Ulshun Prahl carried was made from the tip of a spear.

Meaning the Finnest was originally a spearhead?

Maybe, we don't know enough about how Finnest's work to ignore that possibility, though I imagine that the finnest wouldn't be described as Omtome Phellack if it carried such a strong ascendant soul, I would have thought it would be described as Kurald Emurhlan (sp?).