[Ulrik]

Who would win, Mael or Draconus? Its probably same question...and meaningless answer... We dont know enough. Cowl fought Rake (after attack on Silanah) and its said something like /nobody knows who retreared first", Tay is motherfucker badass painted in GotM and still, Cowl is strangely outed by even stranger power-uped guy, Tay is still holding his stature of great mage, but in direct actions is wounded or wounded... (but he also acts only when big shit happens).

[L'oric]

Haven't we seen in RotCG how Tayschren wrecked the Crimson Guard Mages all by himself or with his mage cadre? From I remember the Crimson Guard or a Crimson Guard says something to the effect of "we never had a counter for Tayschren."

I think that would pretty much cover all Mage Duels between the two.

Now if the question is can cowl kill Tay the answer would be...Yes of course everyone can be killed and everyone is beatable especially to an accomplished assassin such as Cowl, but in reality Tay seems to be one step ahead of people like Cowl. Tay even outsmarted Kelanved to an extent in keeping his ties to the Worm of Autumn on the down low. Also consider the fact that Cowl does not even detect Kiska as she hides in the same room as Tay when they meet. To me he is a very accomplished mage that uses his ability to kill people. Is he even Avowed? Because he runs from topper like a little girl.

Sincerely

This post has been edited by L'oric: 16 November 2011 - 02:59 AM

[Ulrik]

And thats the eternal problem of ICE and SE´s writings...total inconsistency in some characters... (good example with Kiska, that stupid runt ... I´ll accept her if she grows moustache as Kyle!)
And Topper case...ts is still probably the stupidest motive of RotCG for me... We have new almost powerhouse, we have mage capable of flying and unleashing hell of a storm when fighting Rake...and he chooses to be azathied instead of ... dunno ... fleeing? It was crappy scene... but I liked the whole battle:)

[Silencer]

Bear in mind that from what we've seen, the Crimson Guard and their reputation is a bit of a mix'n'match. In the same sense that "no one knows what happened" between Skinner and Dassem, only that Skinner survived and is the only person to have done so, we don't know, for example, what exactly went down in Cowl vs Rake. Rake is a guy who can stand toe-to-toe with several (infighting) High Mages and a Mage Cadre at the start of GotM. Someone who only retreats because he can't defend Moon's Spawn in its entirety, and he values the home of his people more than beating the crap out of Tays. We also know that Tay was not going all-out against Rake, as he was busy taking care of Nightchill. So who's to say what exactly Rake's power is, and where that places Cowl on a vague retelling of a battle we never see under circumstances we don't understand.

Long story short: Cowl flees Topper. Topper is no match for Dancer, who works with Shadowthrone, who is a God, who is said to be outmatched in magic by Tays, who is in turn probably outmatched by Rake, who Cowl is said to have gone magic-to-magic with. It's circular, and inconsistent. What we CAN say is that the weakest link in this chain is the story of Cowl vs Rake. Rake is unlikely to have been going *too* seriously, and Cowl may very well have had HEAPS of backup, and not been fighting straight-up. Thus, Cowl is most likely outclassed in magic by Tay. Whether that's a case for "Who'd Win" is entirely dependent on the strictures of the duel, of course.

Once again we have a case of "top ten are nigh indistinguishable" and "depends on circumstance" and "people lie too much to be certain of facts". I love these books.

[worry]

Just a shot in the dark, but Rake was pretty much blood-lusty in his battle with Cowl because he had harmed Silanah, after he himself had nearly been destroyed by the dragon (whose power had been unleashed, somewhat recklessly, on friend and enemy alike). In other words, they were both likely in a rage at the beginning, and even Spinnock isn't sure who came to his senses first. My guess is Cowl either did in time to escape with his life, or Rake did and let him live.

At the same time Rake was still somewhat incognito as far as the Malazans were concerned, so it's unclear how willing he'd be, even enraged, to unleash his fullest power. Cowl is definitely formidable, but wouldn't actually be able to defeat Rake in 999 out of 1000 fights.

Still, I agree with Ulrik that Cowl's Azath moment was a terrible scene. The only question is will Cowl be able to get himself out of that predicament, which would be the only thing that would redeem it. On a side note, I do think that's the plan...we haven't seen the last of Cowl or Tayschrenn. On another side note, I don't think Cowl would ever let himself get taken by the Azath if he wasn't Avowed, so I think that's circumstantial evidence that he is.

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

Tay's was pretty much focused on Rake at Pale - as was A'Karonys - the demons had already been stored ready to use against Nightchill. Tays had 'saturated' the hill he was on with defensive wards - probably prior to the sorcery. In addition 'numerous' Kenryll'ah demons were unleashed - and Rake destroyed them all so they wouldn't run rampant. Probably to protect Darujhistan. By the end of it Tays couldn't stand and had to be carried away - despite all his preparation(compared to Rake's lack of prep), he was spent - while Rake immediately went on to kill the High Mages of Pale. It is likely A'Karonys was kill by Rake. Tays had pre-planed and built up to this point. Rake on the other hand, likely didn't believe the Malazans would challenge him at the cost of sacrificing so many of their own - the 2nd and 6th Army. Thus he didn't go close to full out as he likely assumed unleashing the amount of power he did - would have forced the Malazan mage's off the field and a general retreat. Tay's was prepared to sacrifice those armies - and therefore likely caught Rake by surprise - by which time enough of Moon's Spawn was destroyed to warrant his own retreat. It is also likely Hairlock was breached by a deflection of Rake's sorcery and Sail/Calot a combination of Rake's and perhaps Tay's.

It is likely that Cowl skedaddled in Mott's Wood.

Cowl and Tay's are on a fairly similar power level. Tay's may have the edge.

This post has been edited by AnomanderRakeSoD: 16 November 2011 - 01:27 PM

[D'rek]

AnomanderRakeSoD, on 16 November 2011 - 01:25 PM, said:

Tay's was pretty much focused on Rake at Pale - as was A'Karonys - the demons had already been stored ready to use against Nightchill. Tays had 'saturated' the hill he was on with defensive wards - probably prior to the sorcery. In addition 'numerous' Kenryll'ah demons were unleashed - and Rake destroyed them all so they wouldn't run rampant. Probably to protect Darujhistan. By the end of it Tays couldn't stand and had to be carried away - despite all his preparation(compared to Rake's lack of prep), he was spent - while Rake immediately went on to kill the High Mages of Pale. It is likely A'Karonys was kill by Rake. Tays had pre-planed and built up to this point. Rake on the other hand, likely didn't believe the Malazans would challenge him at the cost of sacrificing so many of their own - the 2nd and 6th Army. Thus he didn't go close to full out as he likely assumed unleashing the amount of power he did - would have forced the Malazan mage's off the field and a general retreat. Tay's was prepared to sacrifice those armies - and therefore likely caught Rake by surprise - by which time enough of Moon's Spawn was destroyed to warrant his own retreat.

You're giving way too little benefit of the doubt to Rake in order to make him seem more superior. You think a million-year-old Ascendant didn't saturate his own position with defensive wards like Tays because of some perceived emotional idea that the Malazans wouldn't sacrifice themselves? You don't live as long as Rake with those sort of assumptions, and besides Moon's Spawn has been his home for centuries. I'd be surprised if he hadn't been soaking the flying mountain in layer after layer of wards over the years. To say that Rake was unprepared for the battle is silly.

As for focus and progoress of each side, yes Rake (and Bellurdan) destroyed the Kenryll'ah (who knows how many, Tays having survivied he could have easily made them retreat himself) but not right at the start, as the Kenryll'ah achieved their goal of destroying Nightchill. So Rake at the beginning of the battle was doing nothing but trading attacks with the Malazan mages (so no argument of some of his power being diverted the whole time is valid). Rake accomplished destroying the Kenryll'ah and Tays accomplished damaging Moon's Spawn, so both of them got attacks past each other. Does it take more power to destroy a Kenryll'ah than to damage Moon's Spawn? Who can say?

And yeah, Tays passed out afterwards, but not during the battle itself. It was Rake who blinked first by retreating with the mountain. And who's to say Rake didn't stumble inside and pass out himself?

AnomanderRakeSoD, on 16 November 2011 - 01:25 PM, said:

It is also likely Hairlock was breached by a deflection of Rake's sorcery and Sail/Calot a combination of Rake's and perhaps Tay's.

Yeah, I find the QB-Hedge "I ain't Tayschrenn and this ain't Pale!" bits at the end of DoD something of a confirmation of this. Tays was deflecting Rake's attacks to the sides and some of them smacked into the mage cadre's hill.

[Paran]

Yeah, remember Korlat's commentary on Tayschrenn's power when unveiled in MoI. And the whole ode to Tays at the end of RotCG before he gets swallowed up as well as Cowl's meeting with Tays in same novel, where Tays fakes Cowl out about his intentions, etc. To use the Gallaen Lord as he did Tays would have had to do a deal or master it, and that would have taken a fair bit of power.

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

Rake immediately set off to kill the Pale High Mages so he didn't blink first, nor was he close to tired as he himself confirmed 'I only retreated to save the home of my people'. He also didn't fully unleash as he was fighting a battle of proportionality - this was later confirmed by Nimander Golit if I recall correctly. He was caught by surprise at the mentality of the Malazan mages. Not to mention Rake weathered the assault from all 7 mages: Tay/Nightchill/A'Karony's/Bellurden/Mage Cadre at least at the beginning.

Additionally Rake said he expended valuable energy/time killing the demons. Rake was surprised the Malazan's would sacrifice their own armies and unleash demons through them. He was likely surprised Malazan intelligence knew he was ALONE. Moon Spawn had always worked as a deterrence. Rake understood the realities of escalating the amount of Kurald Galain - 40 tiste andii destroyed the crippled gods realm. A single unveiling of the andii forces against someone like Kallor was claimed to have been capable of devastating Genebackis. The reality is that by the time he figured out what was going on Moon's Spawn was vulnerable.

[L'oric]

AnomanderRakeSoD, on 30 November 2011 - 01:32 AM, said:

Rake immediately set off to kill the Pale High Mages so he didn't blink first, nor was he close to tired as he himself confirmed 'I only retreated to save the home of my people'. He also didn't fully unleash as he was fighting a battle of proportionality - this was later confirmed by Nimander Golit if I recall correctly. He was caught by surprise at the mentality of the Malazan mages. Not to mention Rake weathered the assault from all 7 mages: Tay/Nightchill/A'Karony's/Bellurden/Mage Cadre at least at the beginning.

Additionally Rake said he expended valuable energy/time killing the demons. Rake was surprised the Malazan's would sacrifice their own armies and unleash demons through them. He was likely surprised Malazan intelligence knew he was ALONE. Moon Spawn had always worked as a deterrence. Rake understood the realities of escalating the amount of Kurald Galain - 40 tiste andii destroyed the crippled gods realm. A single unveiling of the andii forces against someone like Kallor was claimed to have been capable of devastating Genebackis. The reality is that by the time he figured out what was going on Moon's Spawn was vulnerable.

All 7 of those mages were not trained on killing Rake. While I am sure he was strong enough to survive a united assault by them they were infact busy trying to kill each other.

Sincerely

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

I doubt, when the magic exchange commenced, that the 7 were not trained on Rake. His wards were what stopped their magic getting through his immediate proximity. The sheer size of their assault hammered the rest of Moon's Spawn. A'Karony's especially at one point.

[Paran]

Tayschrenn Vs Cowl dude. The Rake slobbering can be kept to a minimum, we all agree he's ROXOR m'kay?!

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

.....m'kay...

[Vaddon Ra]

Silencer, on 16 November 2011 - 09:17 AM, said:

Bear in mind that from what we've seen, the Crimson Guard and their reputation is a bit of a mix'n'match. In the same sense that "no one knows what happened" between Skinner and Dassem, only that Skinner survived and is the only person to have done so, we don't know, for example, what exactly went down in Cowl vs Rake. Rake is a guy who can stand toe-to-toe with several (infighting) High Mages and a Mage Cadre at the start of GotM. Someone who only retreats because he can't defend Moon's Spawn in its entirety, and he values the home of his people more than beating the crap out of Tays. We also know that Tay was not going all-out against Rake, as he was busy taking care of Nightchill. So who's to say what exactly Rake's power is, and where that places Cowl on a vague retelling of a battle we never see under circumstances we don't understand.

Long story short: Cowl flees Topper. Topper is no match for Dancer, who works with Shadowthrone, who is a God, who is said to be outmatched in magic by Tays, who is in turn probably outmatched by Rake, who Cowl is said to have gone magic-to-magic with. It's circular, and inconsistent. What we CAN say is that the weakest link in this chain is the story of Cowl vs Rake. Rake is unlikely to have been going *too* seriously, and Cowl may very well have had HEAPS of backup, and not been fighting straight-up. Thus, Cowl is most likely outclassed in magic by Tay. Whether that's a case for "Who'd Win" is entirely dependent on the strictures of the duel, of course.

Once again we have a case of "top ten are nigh indistinguishable" and "depends on circumstance" and "people lie too much to be certain of facts". I love these books.

"
Theres a quote that says about a standoff with cowl and rake in the fights in mott wood??? or somewhere like that... and the question goes " who blinked first" Cowl is very very powerful but I actually thought ICE was trying to push Topper into this really really hard character who can use KG and Meanas? He's half Andii too so perhaps right. But I'd have liked to know why Cowl ran into the azath house anyway
Tayschrenn....well he wins against everything XD maybe....a lot of the time XD
Your right, inconsistancies and whatnot XD Any of these could probably kill the other

[Khellendros]

Vaddon Ra, on 21 March 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

But I'd have liked to know why Cowl ran into the azath house anyway.

Well, you'll be glad to know that it's now a RAFO

[Abyss]

Ok sure it's ho'dwinville, but why not...

Limiting myself to books released up to TCG, and thus including RCG, Tays takes it if he sees Cowl coming.

Since Tays, uber high mage and former high priest that he is, would have all kinds of personal wards in place to protect against a sudden attack specifically by a heavy duty assassin mage like Cowl, he is very likely to see/sense/whatever Cowl coming and take him out.

Cowl, being a sneaky mutha master assassin-mage, is likely to wait for an opportunity to strike when Tays is otherwise engaged, like say, trying to stop a massive chaos ritual gone wrong. If Tays' energies are directed that way, Cowl could take him out if he hit hard enough, with absolutely everything he had.

That brings us back to Bugg's speech on power in DoD... Cowl would be likely to hold something back. If he judges that wrong and holds back too much, Tays could take the hit, recover, and then take him out.

[the broken]

Tay can take some serious hits. He was only briefly incapacitated by a blast of the Chaos Warren in MOI, when the main target of the attack, and went on to fight twenty or thirty mages singlehanded while using poisoned warrens. He's pretty tough.

[Brujah]

Nudging this to first page to use in future pairings.

I'm considering it safe to assume we would still have Tay over Cowl to date. If there are any disagreements, let us know.

Edit: possible to slide this thread over to polls for me? If not, no big deal. Just wondering.

This post has been edited by Karsa: 29 April 2013 - 06:58 AM

[Brujah]

I remembering thinking Tayschreen was one of the 'bad guys' when first reading Gardens. That's before I realized there were so many 'grey' characters, and very few 'black or white' ones.I also didn't really care for him much until much later in the series and in combination with ICEs books.

[Crippler]

MODGOD NOTICE OF LATER BOOK SPOILERS DELETED.
THIS IS THE TCG FORUM.
REFERENCES TO EVENTS IN LATER BOOKS DO NOT BELONG HERE.

UPDATE: THREAD MOVED TO POLLS FORUM. CARRY ON.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 12 August 2013 - 03:41 PM