[Nonnus]

Just finished The Steel Remains, by Richard K. Morgan. Picked it up on the strength of a friend's recommendation, though he did warn me of some homo-erotic scenes. Overall, the novel is a great read. The world is rich and gritty, and the politics and races build a great dimension for supporting the tale.

The main characters is gay, and Morgan breaks some fantasy barriers by making him an absolute ass-kicking swordsman, with plenty of anger and soul. Overall, the novel follows the thread of three heroes, and their role in identifying and fending off an external threat (can't say to what, that would give too much away).

The writing is as good as anything in fantasy, and Morgan's credentials in sci-fi are many and earned. This foray into fantasy seems to be a search for a platform by which he can approach certain current trends (specifically homosexuality and the stereotypes associated with gay men) in a way sci-fi might limit an author.

There are a range of hard-core sexual encounters. This includes heterosexual scenes and some tense moments of lesbian thoughts. Also, there area 3-4 homo-erotic scenes, which are pretty graphic in their detail, but those comfortable with their sexuality will simply flinch at the directness of the encounter, and easily continue on to read the story.

Overall, I give the story 4/5 stars. Individuals with an open mind can read the story and enjoy. If you are the least bit homophobic, I suggest you stay away.

[Astra]

 Nonnus, on Mar 24 2009, 04:28 PM, said:

there area 3-4 homo-erotic scenes, which are pretty graphic in their detail

Thanks. This puts me off of the series.
I almost quit reading 1610: A Sundial In A Grave by Mary Gentle when the was a certain scene...

[Illuyankas]

Some homo-eroticism?

It wasn't bad - I certainly don't regret spending cash on it - and I'd continue reading the series as it updates. But I'm going to read all his scifi stuff first.

[Aptorian]

Sometimes doing a search before posting a thread is a good thing

http://www.malazanempire.com/IPBforum/inde...=8530&st=60

Richard Morgan has made a few replies to people's criticism and views on the story in the thread


MODGOD EDIT OF DOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM to note threadmerge executed.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 24 March 2009 - 05:24 PM

[Abyss]

I tend to disagree with taking a positon on the book one way or the other based on the fact that homosexual characters engage in sex in it.

I found it to be excellent fantasy, clever and well written with awesome characters, great action and some very cool ideas that stomp all over the sf / fant boundaries.

As i posted upthread, yes, the man-on-man sex is there and i suppose the especially sensitive reader might be put off by it, but a fantasy fan skipping this book because they 'heard from someone else that there is homosexual sex in it' is really cheating themselves, imnsho.


- Abyss, is however, relieved no one made the sex with the lamprey thingies...

[Aptorian]

I'll take it a step further than Abyss and say that I think people are god awfull biggots if they claim that they won't read a book because there's gay sex in there. Who cares!?

It's just hardcore porn. Whether the cock is going into a a male or female anus, what the hell is the difference? Get over your small minded cultural deficiencies. I can understand it if people just don't like reading about hardcore sex, that can get akward fast (DAMN YOU GOODKIND!!!), but dumping a book just because two men do the naked choo-choo... please, get over yourself and try to grow a little.

Personally I think Ringil is one of the most interesting and most entertaining fantasy characters I've ever read about, because he is so very open and comfortable with himself, and so very angry with the close-minded world he fought for.

The rest of the book was not as good as I could have liked it, as I have stated above, but Ringil ensures I'll buy the next book.

[Use Of Weapons]

I'd have to disagree with the 'stomping all over the SF/F boundaries' comment above. The comment presupposes the existence and integrity of those boundaries in the first place, and as far as I can see they have been weakinging steadily since the 80s, and possible earlier with Pern, Darkover, Sheri Tepper's _True Game_ and others claiming prominent territory across either side. Miéville since, and much steampunk (including Charles Stross's Family Trade series) have broken down those boundaries further, to the point where it's as common to see magic treated as a science as the traditional master/apprentice setup that has become cliché.

Which is not to say that _The Steel Remains_ is not an extremely accomplished, effective and enjoyable novel. I just don't think it's a ground-breaking as some seem to believe.

[Abyss]

I don't disagree with you on the 'boundaries' point, rather, i'm expressing that i like the fact that RM incorporates elements that might otherwise belong in either genre if one takes a narrow view.

The 'ground-breaking' argument might be, at most, applied to prevalence of the homosexual protagonists.


- Abyss, broadly narrow.

[Malaclypse]

I've loved everything of Morgan's that I've read, including this - yes, there were some scenes that engaged my repressed homophobia but if I were to take issue with that aspect it's the same as taking issue with the gratuitous heterosexual sex scenes in Guy Gavriel Kay's work (for example) and I enjoyed that challenge. There were times that I struggled to continue due to the explicit male homosexual content but I recognized it as a challenge and feel better for it. Awesome writer.

[Optimus Prime]

I liked this book and felt it was a strong fantasy debut. It was flawed, as others have mentioned, because the Dwenda and Kiriath were basically weird looking humans....


Also....the book did get a little more "critical acclaim" because of all the man sexing.

I'm hoping the second book builds on the first, kinda like Abercrombie's 2nd and 3rd books did....

[Abyss]

Technically the Dwenda were lightning elves and the Kiriath were hi tech Africans....

And then there were the lamprey women. And the lizard people, let's not forget them.

But i don't agree that it's a flaw to portray non-human races in genre lit as being 'different' but still bipedal two eyes, two ears etc (Star Trek's forehead attachments, anyone?).

- Abyss, ...semi-human.

[Tapper]

Holy crap, I missed all that stuff by Richard m up until now ...

This post has been edited by Tapper: 02 April 2009 - 02:45 PM

[Tapper]

 Optimus Prime, on Apr 2 2009, 06:52 AM, said:

I liked this book and felt it was a strong fantasy debut. It was flawed, as others have mentioned, because the Dwenda and Kiriath were basically weird looking humans....


Also....the book did get a little more "critical acclaim" because of all the man sexing.

I'm hoping the second book builds on the first, kinda like Abercrombie's 2nd and 3rd books did....

Well, Morgan did martian birdtype aliens in the Takeshi Kovacs novels, and all in all, I think bipeds are a logical evolutionary step. More logical, than, say, winged fish in spaceships.

It's also more or less necessary that they are not too different from the human population to make the themes in it concerning Ringil-Seethlaw and Archeth and the emperor's harem girl believable in points of mutual attraction, and a large part of the story is based on the sexual undercurrent and the emotions it causes them.

Then, there is the siren-like fish specimen in the travels of Seethlaw and Ringil to make up for the lack of 'weird' powerful beings, and the multiple references to the lizard war. With dragons.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 02 April 2009 - 02:44 PM

[Myshkin]

I don't think Optimus Prime was complaining that the Dwenda and Kiriath were physically human like; I think he had the same complaint as i did, namely that the Dwenda and Kiriath acted, talked, and thought in exactly the same manner as the humans. As alien races they should have been different from humans in more ways than mere appearance.

[Optimus Prime]

Exactly, Myshkin.

I liked the book, don't get me wrong, but I felt it was a little overblown how "genre changing" it was. I'm very interested to see how the 2nd book turns out.

I want to see more of the Lizards. They intrigued me. He did that really well, alluding to them but not actually showing them to us. Made me want to read more and more.

[Tapper]

Isn't attraction more or less equal to sharing patterns? I mean, if they thought in completely different ways, wouldn't it be like trying to have a conversation with an urang utan, both of you only agreeing that banana's are yellow and yummy? Not much good in a character novel, which Morgan said it was.

besides, I think that in the gods, we have a very exotic species that is bipedal and not at all human.
Oh, and the lizards were awesome, aye. A bit warhammerish, and they reminded me of the good ol' TBS games, but they had dragons.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 06 April 2009 - 12:58 PM

[Abyss]

 Tapper, on Apr 2 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

Well, Morgan did martian birdtype aliens in the Takeshi Kovacs novels, and all in all, I think bipeds are a logical evolutionary step. More logical, than, say, winged fish in spaceships.

It's also more or less necessary that they are not too different from the human population to make the themes in it concerning Ringil-Seethlaw and Archeth and the emperor's harem girl believable in points of mutual attraction, and a large part of the story is based on the sexual undercurrent and the emotions it causes them.
...

 Myshkin, on Apr 4 2009, 12:31 AM, said:

I don't think Optimus Prime was complaining that the Dwenda and Kiriath were physically human like; I think he had the same complaint as i did, namely that the Dwenda and Kiriath acted, talked, and thought in exactly the same manner as the humans. As alien races they should have been different from humans in more ways than mere appearance.

It runs both ways doesn't it? Just because a race is 'different' doesn't mean they have to be completely 'alien', in the sense of Watts' book 'Blindsight' or Reynolds' 'Revelation space' where the aliens are well and truly alien.

Fundamentally, the Dwenda ARE very human. It's one of the things Ringil figures out and uses to fight them... spoilerblocking just because these are some key plot points...

Spoiler

parahrasing... 'ignore the lightning, ignore the speed... they can bleed and they are just as afraid of us as we are of them'. And Ringil doesn't just get that because he makes the sex with one, but that's part of it. The Kiriath ran away BECAUSE they were so human that fighting in the humans' war was turning them into a more warlike race and they couldn't deal with it.

So imnsho, the point of the interactions is that those races were very 'human'... they shared qualities with the human race. It was a defining point in their interactions with humans. Unlike the lamprey-head-women who were apparently very the opposite.

 Tapper, on Apr 2 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

...
Then, there is the siren-like fish specimen in the travels of Seethlaw and Ringil to make up for the lack of 'weird' powerful beings, and the multiple references to the lizard war. With dragons.

 Optimus Prime, on Apr 4 2009, 01:57 AM, said:

...
I want to see more of the Lizards. They intrigued me. He did that really well, alluding to them but not actually showing them to us. Made me want to read more and more.

 Tapper, on Apr 6 2009, 08:58 AM, said:

...
besides, I think that in the gods, we have a very exotic species that is bipedal and not at all human.
Oh, and the lizards were awesome, aye. A bit warhammerish, and they reminded me of the good ol' TBS games, but they had dragons.

One of the things i thought RM really nailed in this book was storytelling by omission - the Lizard War, the Kiriath's involvement and departure, how Egar became 'dragonslayer'... RM does SUCH a good job of making these things AWESOME by dropping hints and refs throughout the book.

By the time Egar tells the story of Ringil rallying the troops for the last stand against the lizards i was totally wanting to see more.

And i agree with Tapper - the gods are just a different race, not gods in the 'mightly luminous beings' sense.

- Abyss, luminous being.

[Myshkin]

 Abyss, on Apr 6 2009, 06:14 AM, said:

It runs both ways doesn't it? Just because a race is 'different' doesn't mean they have to be completely 'alien', in the sense of Watts' book 'Blindsight' or Reynolds' 'Revelation space' where the aliens are well and truly alien.

They don't have to be completely alien, but I'd like them to be at least somewhat alien. My complaint wasn't that those two races weren't different enough, it was that the weren't different at all.

[Optimus Prime]

Morgan did w/ the Lizards what Erikson did with the FA and KCCM for the first couple Malaz books.....drove us nuts with hints and glimpses of them but didn't give his hand away. Very well done.

[Abyss]

 Myshkin, on Apr 7 2009, 12:17 AM, said:

... My complaint wasn't that those two races weren't different enough, it was that the weren't different at all.

On the Dwenda i tend to agree with you. They had a whole 'different perception of time/space thing going but that was about it for the lightning elves and ringils dealings with them showed them as very 'human'. I don't have any problem with that but i see your point.

We didn't really see anough about the Kiriath but given that they could breed with humans, i don't think they were ever meant to be anything other than an advanced race of humans from another dimension - not a whole other species.

The lizards were a complete cipher - other than genocidal tendencies, we don't learn anything about them. The 'gods' seem to be near omniscient human types but i suspect there's more to it.


- Abyss, semi-omniscient...