[bhok'arala]

exactly!

its the sense of so many plot lines and when they come together, WHAMMO! its just like wow...
ive reread so amny times and every time i do, i catch something new and that just kind of improves the series as you figure out these revelations

[Werthead]

I really dislike the line that people have to read both GotM and DHG (sometimes MoI as well) before they know if they're going to 'get' the series. The response to that is, "Hang on, I have to give the author 1,700 pages to hook me in? Isn't that his job with the first paragraph?" It's actually a pretty daft thing to ask people to do if you think about it.

Of course, I thought Gardens of the Moon was an excellent book in the first three chapters and have never really understood those who moan that the first book is 'too hard' to get into

[Danyah]

Here in in the Dutch language region it's even worse, the publisher dropped SE after DG because he didn't sell enough. They only published Hobb and Feist. Feist for fucks sake!
So everybody was forced to switch to English . I was the only one who did.

But even in translation, everybody was like "Whoa, all those names, those characters, I really had t focus to keep up with the story.". That's what happens if you read Feist. Nah. "Man, more than two plotlines, my head is spinning."

Nothing against Feist, but the age category for which it is written should be more like boys from age 13-17. It's the goddamn Dragonball Z of fantasy.

[lorddarkflare]

Well yeah, the Only books Feist wrote that were actually good and Original was Magician and Daughter of the empire. Everything else belongs in a garbage heap.

[Wordmerchant]

I think to an extent many readers have been conditioned by the tripe and drivel that for the most part floods the speculative market.

When I first started reading Gardens, I approached it with the mindset of it being another " something to read mindlessly for a few minutes". With most fare in the genre, you can do this and not really miss anything. After about 3 chapters I was hopelessly lost and came to the startling conclusion that I would actually have to participate in the reading.

And now you're stuck with me. :eek:

[blewin]

I didn't have that experience, well, not that disorientating anyway, since I started off with DG. And now it does bother me about missing that experience of reading GotM first... now I'd never know whether I'd have kept reading if I had started properly with book 1.

[tiam]

I had only read king beyond the gate and the lord of the rings when i picked up Erikson at an airport andwhile i consider myself reasonably intelligent i wouldnt say i was Einstein and if im honest alot of SE philosophy goes over my head.

Thats if im being honest. if im lying then i agree blind idealism is reactionary.

Also SE made the series so hard to get into what with the first 200 of GOTM

[Optimus Prime]

I loved GotM. It sucks you right in and you're scrambling to hold on

It doesn't have that silly, hack written 100 page intro that's starts something like this...

"In the Realm of Gandinor, there was a great evil rising. The peasants were worried and weary. They need something. They needed a hero. They needed. A Plot line.

Jonny DoGoodington was a simple man. Until he found. The Sword of POWA!!!! Oh despair evil doers! For the righteous peasant has found thine holy sword to vanquish ye utterly."

SUCK

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Optimus Prime;362387 said:

I loved GotM. It sucks you right in and you're scrambling to hold on

It doesn't have that silly, hack written 100 page intro that's starts something like this...

"In the Realm of Gandinor, there was a great evil rising. The peasants were worried and weary. They need something. They needed a hero. They needed. A Plot line.

Jonny DoGoodington was a simple man. Until he found. The Sword of POWA!!!! Oh despair evil doers! For the righteous peasant has found thine holy sword to vanquish ye utterly."

SUCK

SHuoldn't have posted this on a public forum. I think we'll soon see this published under Goodkind's name.

[DeuceDrizzle]

I think what a lot of people fail to understand, and what I try to explain to people when they are first getting into the books, is that you are not meant to get it all right away. You are discovering the history of the world, you are learning about the warrens and how they work and the crazy events surrounding their creation/sundering AS THE CHARACTERS DO!

I have read A LOT of fantasy as I am sure many of you have, and don't get me wrong sometimes I love a good Salvatore, Drizzt novel for sheer fun and simplicity. However, these books actually make you think, they encourage re-reads, and they are very REAL. I remember reading the Brooks Shanarra stuff, and after the 3rd book I was like "really? are we going to have another guy with a power he doesn't understand and needs to learn how to use to save whatever". These books constantly keep me on my toes, and I love being able to go back and understand more about the plot, the characters and their motivations, and so much more.

If you like to be force fed everything about the world and have an incredibly generic story line these books simply won't be for you.

[temp]

Quote

Commercial fantasy writers are contributing to this as well in order to sell books.

I wouldn't place all the blame on the writers. It is my belief that there are many good undiscovered authors who's works/proposals are rejected by publishers...maybe for reasons such as this.

Some publisher working for "the man":
"hmmm, this story is too complex and requires too much thinking, it won't sell...maybe if you dumb it down a bit...you know, like Goodkind"

It's the publishers who think they know what is going to sell, and they decide which transcripts etc. are going to make the grade or which will get rejected.

[Osric]

This is why I love erikson, his story is hard to understand and nothing is simply explained. I worked in a factory for like 8 months last year and I dont know if any of you have ever done manual labor for an extended period of time but it really dumbs you down, not having to think takes all the sharpness out of your brain, like its a muscle that gets weak when you dont train it. SE's books helped loads with this, I'd read them every day and it was a good excercise.

[powermad]

well yeah i would have to admit now that fantasy has changed since SE has come into the fore. i actualy bought gardens of the moon in a secound hand store in dublin a few years ago and didnt read it for about 6 months. then i decided to bring it with me on holiday as something to read. then kablamo ive pretty much said goodbye to most other fantasy thats out there at the moment.ive had enough of elves and dwarves and an evil lord living in a wasteland, if i wanted that id read harry potter for goodness sake.

[Crow Clan Baby]

SE actually says some interesting things about the "in a the deep end" bit in the new GotM preface, acknowledging that it's a 50/50 love/hate split, and that you have to work with these books.

Interestingly, I also read Deadhouse first (hadn't a clue about the series, and just picked it up cos it was big and I liked the cover), and that's probably an easier entry point to the series.

[redJAKO]

The_Watcher, on Oct 21 2007, 07:09 AM, said:

<br />I work in a bookstore in a small town where fluffy fantasy reigns, Mercedes Lackey rules here, nothing wrong with her, I read her, she's a good writer, but not my first choice. Not too many buyers of Erikson's works. I always try to suggest it. When someone came in asking for something different to read. I point out the Malazan books, they are gritty, great characters and some great battles - that make sense. He came back two weeks later and said he didn't care for them, too much war not enough character development. <br /> <br />I saw the problem a few hours later, most readers - around here at least - are lazy, they want everything spelled out for them, characters, plot, everything. Commercial fantasy writers are contributing to this as well in order to sell books. I hate that, this is intelligent writing, characters are complex, so are the stories, the battles are thought out. He was lazy in my opinion. What happened to the days when we had to use our imagination when it came to reading? Erikson assumes you are intelligent and writes that way, I love that. It gets the little gray cells moving, Tolkien wrote this way too, he didn't explain everything, he left a lot for the reader to think about, left a lot to the imagination. <br /> <br />I am curious about everyone's opinion.<br />

<br />

Even just starting with Gardens of the Moon, the books display high "learning curves" in keeping track of the MASSIVE world of Erikson. I was really confused starting out between the T'Lan Imass, and the Tiste ____.

All of his books have these "learning curves" which just shows how deep, broad and amazing the "world buidling" of Erikson is.


Some people I know who love fantasy haven't been able to get into his books, and some have stayed up till 5am reading like myself trying to finish the next novel


Good stuff, but I see your point.


He writes, most certainly, for intelligent readers, and those who "persevere."

I'm glad I found em



Anyone read R. Scott Bakker? I may start a thread on a VS between Erikson, both are fantastic.

[Astraphobia]

I was even worse off. I started at The BoneHunters. The BoneHunters, for chrissake... 6th book in the series!!!

At first, I bought it because it looked good and was really thick. I ended up chucking it in one corner, until one fine day, I decided to randomly pick it up and read through because I had nothing better to do.

It was really, really confusing, and I often had to force myself to read through and PERSEVERE! I had to reread it at least twice before I had a firm grasp of what was happening. Then, I was hooked. My local bookstore isn't big on Erikson, so I had to scour every bookshelf before I finally found RG, which I already finished reading. I proceeded to move on to GotM and DHG. I had to read all the books several times (with many jawdrop moments) before my confusion was cleared. But yes, after that, it was like magic, but I phased out of my teenage rebellious stage and began thinking more and more maturely. Also influenced my writing style a heck lot.

However, when I lent it to a friend, she described it as "the most boring book" she has ever read. 'Tis sad.

[alt146]

I think the thing to remember about this series, and GOTM specifically, is that it starts halfway through the story. All the characters are already 'developed', we just dont know anything about them. Which makes it much more like real life. 90% of the time you have no idea why people say and do things when you meet them. Then you get to know them better, find out more about them and their pasts and gain a better understanding of who they are. The same thing happens in these books.

When I read GoTM, I though most of the characters were cool, but didnt really care much about them. After reading about stuff like the formation of the bridgeburners, they meant a lot more to me. And it wouldnt have had nearly the same impact if the book started with 'This is WhiskeyJack. He's badass and his troops love him because of this trip through the desert they once made.' Instead we slowly learn who the bridgeburners are by spending time with them, then we learn what made them the way they are and go 'wow'. This formula is applied to almost all the characters in the earlier novels, except maybe Karsa, since we only see him briefly before HoC.

For character development to have happened in the traditional sense would have been damn near impossible, as the series would have started at pretty much the beginning of time, since a couple of the characters have been around since then. And to be honest, it would have been incredibly long and boring fantasy/history. I think the characters are much richer for having to be discovered, rather than dumped into our laps.

I agree that the first book can be hard going and confusing, but so much incredibly cool stuff happens. So many of the characters and places are interesting for what they are, rather than who. And there's this tangible mystery surrounding everything that I finished it for that and the love of the world and it's people came after.

[Wry]

I actualy started with house of chains, just picked it up because i liked the coer and was in a hurry. then went and bought the earlier ones and only had a couple of months wait for midnight tides to come out.

HoC is actually a good jumping in point, it started of in a nice hermetically sealed area, free from the vast complications of the rest of the malaz world. the first book is all karsa, and much more like run of the mill fantasy then it gently introduces other elements, but importantly you've several hundred pages alone with the one character where very little of the millions of years of history is refered to, so you don't really get the whole jumping into the deep end thing you get with GotM. plus you're not in the middle of ongoing stories as you would be with any other book.

I think this is the book to give people if you're trying to convert them, it's a gentle introduction where you can let SE's obvious skill hook them then they'll go and devour all the rest of the series

[Astraphobia]

Really? That's awesome. Already trying to get my paws on HoC >3

...

Omfg I saw it at the bookstore in some remote corner (SE's books are very rare here) and I forgot to bring the money for it.

-shootsself-

[Jude]

Wry, on Nov 10 2008, 05:17 AM, said:

I actualy started with house of chains, just picked it up because i liked the coer and was in a hurry. then went and bought the earlier ones and only had a couple of months wait for midnight tides to come out.

HoC is actually a good jumping in point, it started of in a nice hermetically sealed area, free from the vast complications of the rest of the malaz world. the first book is all karsa, and much more like run of the mill fantasy then it gently introduces other elements, but importantly you've several hundred pages alone with the one character where very little of the millions of years of history is refered to, so you don't really get the whole jumping into the deep end thing you get with GotM. plus you're not in the middle of ongoing stories as you would be with any other book.

I think this is the book to give people if you're trying to convert them, it's a gentle introduction where you can let SE's obvious skill hook them then they'll go and devour all the rest of the series

This made me come up with an interesting topic of ponderings. The karsa segment in HoC is SE's way of showing the world he can write in a condensed way like so many other fantasy authors and that he would simply rather not write that way for the bigger part of his series. It's a way of saying, "Oh yeah?" to everyone that stated that the broadness and scope of his story reveals clumsy prose. That's right. People have said that in other forums. I've had to fist-fight one or two of them.