[Turambar]

I'm not done with Bonehunters yet, but had to get some input right away...
I just finished the part in G'Danisban where all heck breaks loose and the Deragoth take down Poliel. OMG... sweet. And then Dujek falls anyway. Bittersweet victory, smacking of Shakespeare.

The only thing I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around is what was going on with the Deragoth and Hounds of Shadow. It seemed like they were being referred to interchangeably, though they are separate entities. I can't decide if this is just error in perception by the viewpoint characters (mistaken identity), or if they were actually both there. The latter is my best understanding. What was left of Dejim Nebrahl was being carried around by one of them, which means the Deragoth was there. But the Hounds of Shadow were there as well, as evidenced by Shadowthrone's anger at the interference that resulted in their being wounded by Apsalar. So, did he sent the Hounds to get Quick Ben alone? Was that their only purpose there? Also, I'm a bit confused by how Paran "enlisted" the Deragoth to do the dirty work of getting rid of Dejim Nebrahl and Poliel. Yes, he released them, but what manner of control does he have over them? Also, even Cotillion seems confused when he shows up after the fact. He thinks the Deragoth sustained the wounds, while it was the Hounds. The Hounds are controlled by the Shadow, but the Deragoth are of Darkness. So, they really aren't Shadowthrone's to control....

I think the most confusing (not necessarily in a bad way) thing is the fact that Erikson is not hesitant to "tell" you wrong things due to a viewpoint character not having enough knowledge, or just plain wrong knowledge. In something like this, you almost need to read through sections like this multiple times to get the clearest picture. But then again, you just want to keep reading to see what's next... Some time soon I'm going to just have to start back in at book 1 and re-read them all. I'm sure it'll shock me how many new things would turn up. Anyway, thanks to anyone who shares their two cents on what turned out to be quite a few questions...

[Imperium Corruo]

One of the Hounds of Shadow had Dejim Nebrahl in its mouth. The Deragoth were chasing both Dejim Nebrahl and the Hounds of Shadow. Ouick Ben, knows that Shadowthrone does not necessarily like him very much, so he thinks the Hounds of Shadow are there for him, and Shadowthrone put him there so they will find him (and presumably do bad things). Maybe some of that is true, because Apsalar to my understanding beats down the Hounds of Shadow to keep them from Quick Ben.

Once the Deragoth get really close, Apsalar gets out of there, and the Hounds of Shadow drop Dejim Nebrahl and bolt without messing with Quick Ben because the Deragoth want to destroy the Hounds of Shadow (because they are the shadow of the Deragoth, maybe a power leach).

-At this point I will say that I may be wrong, about that sequence, I'm pretty sure Apsalar was kicking the Hounds of Shadow, because I don't see her being as successful with the Deragoth. I just read this myself not two weeks ago.
And how did Apsalar know what was going down just from the string thing?

Anyhow, the question I just thought of reading your post is how did Paran know the Deragoth were going to be there to finish off Poliel? I don't recall the Hounds of Shadow carrying Dejin Nebrahl to Poliel being something that was discussed. So it seems like Paran was going to finish her off on his own, but since the Deragoth showed up he decided to let them do it.

Now, why did the Deragoth care enough to finish off Poliel at all? What was she to them... meat?

Hope that helps (and is not totally off :-) )

[Turambar]

Imperium Corruo;213027 said:

Anyhow, the question I just thought of reading your post is how did Paran know the Deragoth were going to be there to finish off Poliel? I don't recall the Hounds of Shadow carrying Dejin Nebrahl to Poliel being something that was discussed. So it seems like Paran was going to finish her off on his own, but since the Deragoth showed up he decided to let them do it.

Now, why did the Deragoth care enough to finish off Poliel at all? What was she to them... meat?

My thoughts exactly. I presume that since Paran released the Deragoth, he had some plan in mind for using them. Also, being Master of the Deck, I'd think he'd have some sense of them being close by, if not by the howls resounding through the air at the time. When I read this section, it felt like Paran had trapped Poliel with the otataral knowing that the Deragoth (or Hounds maybe?) were on their way. It's this measure of control over such a powerful, and seemingly untamable, being that had me wondering....

Apsalar definitely carved up the Hounds, not the Deragoth, as evidenced by them licking their wounds back at Shadow Keep with ST. I thought that the Deragoth was who took down Dejim Nebrahl, though, not the Hounds.... maybe I need to re-read that, too. I definitely remember it being odd that what was left of Dejim Nebrahl was being lugged around during that scene. He made a point to mention it on several occassions, which made me wonder what the significance was to that. It seems that when the Hounds are on the seen, SE calls them by name (Gear, Baran, etc) and I don't remember any of the name-calling during Dejim Nebral's butt-kicking.

[Turambar]

This was bugging me so much that I had to go back a few places and dig a little deeper. I now believe that the Deragoth had nothing to do with the scene at all. I think it was all Hounds of Shadow. Here’s why:

We see the fight with Dejim Nebrahl from its POV, and he is the one initially thinking “Deragoth”. Right near the end, though, when he thinks he is on the brink of dying, he realizes it is not the Deragoth:

“Unlike the Deragoth, he realized, these Hounds possessed a master.” (p. 439, US)

So, I was mistaken. It was the Hounds of Shadow who put the beat-down on Dejim Nebrahl.

Here’s the truly confusing part. Skip ahead to Poliel’s POV (p. 504, US), and you find:

“Five Hounds of Shadow entered the chamber.
Her death. Shadowthrone, you fool.
A Hound flung something from its mouth, something that skidded, spitting and writhing, up against the first step of the dais.”

Further description of what the Hound released followed, and it is obviously Dejim Nebrahl. So, more proof that it wasn’t the Deragoth, right? That’s what I thought. But then only a few sentences later, still in Poliel’s POV:

“A final thought, meekly satisfying in itself, as the Deragoth arrived…”

The section ends a few sentences later with:

“And then the Deragoth, the first enslavers of humanity, were upon her.”

Why would Poliel, a goddess herself, use the terms Hos/Deragoth interchangeably? Wouldn’t she know the difference?

Finally, back at Shadowkeep, Cotillion approaches Shadowthrone, who is seething. He calls them by name, and their dialog goes like this: (p.508, US)
ST: “Look well, Cotillion.”
C: “The Deragoth?”
ST: “No, not the Deragoth.”
C: “No, I suppose not. Those look like knife cuts.”

So it seems to me that it was definitely the Hounds of Shadow in all perspectives. The puzzling thing, though, is why they are referred to like one entity by Poliel….

[D'rek]

They aren't. Here's how it all takes place, in chronological order:

Deragoth are released by Paran and Hounds are sent to Seven Cities and Dejim Nebrahl is wandering about.

1. The Deragoth, upon their return to Seven Cities, chase after their alter egos, the Hounds of Shadow.

2. The Hounds of Shadow attack Dejim Nebrahl (all 4 of him), capturing the final one. Dejim Nebrahl initially believes them to be Deragoth but soon realizes he is wrong (the Hounds and Deragoth are related and Dejim has never seen a Hound before so it's an ok mistake).

3. The Hounds start running across Seven Cities, still carrying Dejim. The Deragoth are still chasing after them.

4. Paran traps Poliel with the otatoral.

5. The Hounds arrive and place Dejim in Poliel's lap. They run out the back door.

6. The Deragoth (still following the Hounds) arrive and pause in their hunt to destroy Dejim and Poliel. They do this because they don't like T'rolbarahl. Poliel just kind of gets in their way.

7. Meanwhile, the Hounds are about to attack Quick Ben, but Apsalar fights them to give Quick enough time to escape.


So you can see, it's a combination of Hounds leading the Deragoth in for the kill. A great example scene is when they charge through the Malazan encampment and first the Hounds run through, then when [Hurlochel?] is getting up the Deragoth come through in pursuit.

[Turambar]

Ah, yes. Thanks for the input. Looking back again, I saw the part where the Hounds fled after dropping the Dejim Nebrahl. Pretty key point to miss. Thanks for clearing that up!

[Imperium Corruo]

I still think the Deragoth were initially attacking Dejim Nebrahl, then the SH interrupted by stealing one of the d'ivers bodies. The SH ran with DN to Poliel where they dropped DN and the Deragoth finished it off, as they were chasing both DN and the SH

The question remains, why did the Deragoth give a hoot about Poliel? And, What was Paran going to do in the Absence of the Deragoth anyway? there was no evidence he knew they were invited to that particular shindig.

[D'rek]

Paran unleashed the Deragoth only to take out Dejim Nebrahl. Presumably the Hounds couldn't manage that themselves. He didn't know they'd be coming to the party, but he did know they'd be chasing the Hounds (he warned Shadowthrone the Deragoth would be going straight for them). One thing we know about Paran is that he improvises well.

I don't think the Deragoth really did give a hoot about Poliel. They saw Dejim, who's existance they couldn't tolerate, and he happened to be right next to a severely wounded goddess, and the Deragoth, in their bloodlust, simply had another snack. They seem to like killing powerful beings that have suddenly been made weak anyway, and it only took a moment. I'm sure if Poliel had been in the next room over they wouldn't have bothered.

[acesn8s]

Hi, first post.

I just read this part of BH's last night. I have a theory. The Hounds were herding Dejim Nebrahl towards the Deragoth.

Back before the scene in Poliel’s temple, Dejim Nebrahl was attacked by the Deragoth (in front of the remnants of the 14th) DN had been herded towards the Deragoth by the Hounds. Before the Deragoth attack, I believe it was mentioned that DN wondered why the wounded 4th wasn’t attacked by its pursuers (the Hounds), but “suspected nothing.”

After the Deragoth killed the healthy 3, the Hounds grabbed the wounded 4th (or should I say 1st now?). The Hounds kept him until they were able to place him directly into the Deragoths path, which ended up being in Poliel’s lap.

So Paran doesn’t control the Deragoth, but he has influence over the Hounds, or at least over Shadowthrone. He can arrange for the Hounds to show up somewhere, which means the Deragoth arrive shortly afterwards. An interesting ability

[Crow Clan Baby]

Funny, I always thought that the Deragoth were the physical manifestations (or true bodies) of the Hounds. It seemed pretty explicit from somewhere I don't quite remember.

[Mentalist]

Well, Paran basically told ST what he wanted the Hounds to do for him when he released the Degaroth (at which point ST goes into a priceless rant, dropping the word "Idiot" all over the place, ending it with "Brilliant! Now why didn't I think of that? Because I'm not an IDIOT!!!".
As for why Degaroth ate Poliel--think about it: there are fivo of them. last time they snacked was on the 3 DNs, back near Y'Ghatan. And now there's only one DN for the five of them... clearly that won't be filling by itself.

[Zanth13]

I always thought releasing the Deragoth bas a bit extreme for dealing with DN.

I felt bad for him, he spent the whole book getting his ass wooped, By Mappo, Pust, that marine chic, the hounds.... poor guy had a bad run of luck, and he was suppose to be such a bad ass....

I think Paran over reacted a little

- I secretly hoped that DN would win, become stronger and take over the world...."sigh"

[Revmagus]

It was said earlier, when Dejim Nebrahl had been reduced to one creature that it needed blood to revitalize itself. So destroying Poliel would be a very powerful source of replenishing blood, no?

I believe that all D'ivers created by the First Empire are referred to as Deragoth, I could be wrong.

[tharinock]

here is a question. Paran releases the deragoth to stop Dejim Nebrahl from enslaving mankind right? didn't it say that the deragoth were the first enslavers of humans? does not make much sense to me. it's like killing a tyrant and replacing him with an evil dictator.

[Aptorian]

Revmagus;227541 said:

I believe that all D'ivers created by the First Empire are referred to as Deragoth, I could be wrong.

Where do you have this from? It would be an important puzzle in the deragoth/first empire mythos

tharinock;227558 said:

here is a question. Paran releases the deragoth to stop Dejim Nebrahl from enslaving mankind right? didn't it say that the deragoth were the first enslavers of humans? does not make much sense to me. it's like killing a tyrant and replacing him with an evil dictator.

The Deragoth enslaved mankinds ancestors, the Eres'al. 4-500.000 years ago.

Dejim Nebrahl was the most overhyped character so far, no more powerfull than the pack in MT or those wolf d'ivers in HoC.

[tharinock]

Quote

The Deragoth enslaved mankinds ancestors, the Eres'al. 4-500.000 years ago.

point is, they are just as likely to enslave mankind as dn.

as for being overhyped, i think of it like this. he was fresh awakened, so was in a weak state. He had the capability to become powerful, if given enough blood. Paran knew that DN was one of the most powerful guys in the First Empire, and might not have known that he was in a weakened state. Thus the hype is not necesarily wrong, just too early. Had DN had time to gain power Paran might have needed the Deragoth to destroy him.

[Aptorian]

The Deragoth are only five now, they don't populate an entire continent. They haven't even shown any magical capability except perhaps speed and realm hoping yet. An army could take them out if it was prepared. One cusser and there's deragoth bits everywhere.

[tharinock]

could the Deragoth have had any influence over there release? We have not seen any magical abilities of this sort, but it is possible that they have the right subtle skills to do this. maybe just plant the idea into Paran's head.

[Aptorian]

That kind of skill is a mocra ability, the Deragoth are old creatures from the times of the holds. I don't think they could do that.

[Dancer+]

Are there any hints that a hold could act in a similar way to mockra, but far less subtly...like mass confusion, rather than subtle trickery?