[Aptorian]

Okay this is a bit more of a structure analysis than a question thread.

I remember SE saying in an interview, that when he discussed the undertaking of the Malazan Book of the Fallen with his publisher they settled on him having 10 books to tell this story. He'd need that much to tell the three big story lines he'd developed, ten books making room for a possible fourth storyline, which I think he eventually did include. I may be off on the exact details but that's the outline.

So what do you think are the main story threads and what storythreads are just subplots or perhaps just useless filler that looks like a storyline?

My guess would be:

A) The CG problem (obviously)
Subplots being:
The Pantheon War
The Master of the Deck
Kru'lls warrens and the Starvald Demelain question
The Holds vs. The Houses
Brood and his Hammer

The Sundering of KE and it's restoration:
Subplots being:
The whole Andi, Liosan, Edur history
The Deragoth and and the Hounds of Shadow
Kellanved and Dancers schemes within schemes

Then I get confused

perhaps C) is The Malazan Empire:
Subplots being:
The fait of the Malazan armies
The fait of the Malazan empire (Laseen vs. Rel)

or perhaps the entire Edur/Lether storyline was C).
Subplots being:
Rhulad, Trull and the rest of the Sengar family
The Edur vs. Human Civilization
The tyranny of money

Or maybe it's Crokus and the future of Darujistan:
From thief to assassin to hero of Darujistan
The Seguleh and the Torruld.

Then there's Icarium, his machines and the Nameless Ones (this actually seems like a big deal)
There's the KCCM, fall and return.
Envy, Spite and Draconus (and Rakes role in all this)
Dragnipur and its sundering
The Donkeygoth
The Imass, T'lan Imass, then Imass again.
The Wolves of Winter
Karsa and his future return to rule all Giant Races
The Assassins sleeping in the Azaths (STs game)
Felisin(s) and 7C --- was this a big storyline? it seems to have dragged on from DG to BH?
Dessimbelackis and TC

[q21]

I think you got the first two pretty much right. One of the things I love most anout SE is that there aren't just one dimensional storylines, everything is intertwined. As cool as that makes the books it makes conclusively separating major story archs difficult, if not impossible.

Personally I think the Icarium story is a major part of the series. Its garanteed to carry on for at least another book because even if Iccy is dead (I hope he isn't though), there is still Mappo who's running arround looking for him - he doesn't know what happened in Letheras. I think something ineresting and completely unexpected has happened to Icarium.

[Zanth13]

They do all seem to intertwine at parts, very good job on that list btw. a simplified version might be

The malazan Drama:
all that imcompases their armies and people, maybe even shadowthrones games. probably culminates in the end of the empire.

The Chained God's Drama:
Inludes lether story arch, burns sickness ect. main threat being the end of the world

Mother Darks Drama:
ie getting chased by choas, dragosnpur, more archs about the tiste's ect ect. main threat being the end of the world.


This is a way simplified again.

[cerveza_fiesta]

I'd put restoration of KuEm under Malazan drama, cause I consider Shadowthrone and Cotillon to be part of that whole thing, being former malazans themselves. I'd put crokus and apsalar under this category...also heboric unless there's something major happening with the jade statues in the next book. Oh yeah, paran too...This would be arc 1

For sure the CG plot and subplots is second of the arcs. I'd put Iccy, mappo and (controversially) Karsa under all this because SE talks so much of chains with him in particular. With Iccy, he seems kind of broken and I was thinking he might eventually ally with the CG (theory only). Also, this one relates pretty heavily to the end-of-the-world root cause.

Edur/letherii is the third of course, including redmask, schilas, rhulad etc.

The fourth is what I'd call the ancient history arc and it basically includes any long ago happenings that affect Wu's present. This part would include all the elder god stuff (k'rul, draconus, mael, etc), dragnipur's creation / origins, t'lan imass, ruin / scabandari, kallor's curse, jade statues, first empire, jaghut rituals, Forkul Assail, and all that lovely stuff.

Not totally complete because there's a lot of crossover, like q21 said...plus there are a few small arcs that don't really fit in anything yet like brood, otataral dragon, KCCM, Felisin younger's future.

EDIT: Good post btw Apt

[Clip]

When I read SE's books, I don't see different story arcs at all, I just see a collection of stories about different characters.

tMBotF is more about the characters and what happens to them than about any one storyline, the story lines are there to give context and history and a reason for the character plots.

Having a story arc and having to stick to it with all of the characters around that arc can restrict the characters, and their thought, feelings, and actions.

If there was going to be an overall arc that SE has in mind when writing it is what happens to the characters by the 10th book, not what happens to resolve story lines.

I have a feeling that by the 10th book there'll still be many things left unsolved and unfinished. After all tMBotF is just a snippet of history of the world that it is set in, it doesn't have a clear beginning or end.

[cerveza_fiesta]

clip;211720 said:

When I read SE's books, I don't see different story arcs at all, I just see a collection of stories about different characters.

tMBotF is more about the characters and what happens to them than about any one storyline, the story lines are there to give context and history and a reason for the character plots.

Having a story arc and having to stick to it with all of the characters around that arc can restrict the characters, and their thought, feelings, and actions.

If there was going to be an overall arc that SE has in mind when writing it is what happens to the characters by the 10th book, not what happens to resolve story lines.

I have a feeling that by the 10th book there'll still be many things left unsolved and unfinished. After all tMBotF is just a snippet of history of the world that it is set in, it doesn't have a clear beginning or end.

Yeah, exept I remember that bit apt talks about from SE's interview where he talks about there being several arcs he intends to bring together by the end of the last book.

And a plot arc doesn't restrict anything, its just a descriptor. Arc in this sense is used to describe related plot elements spanning more than one book (or show) in a series. You can stick to it, stray from it, end it, combine it or begin another one as an author. I don't get why you think its restrictive...

[Clip]

a plot arc can be unrestictive, but a definitive story line, like the one in, say, Robert Jordan's books, create a narrow path along which the characters move, and doesn't let them stray, everything the characters do is because of the storyline, and it doesn't allow for deviation.

Maybe I should have used the words story line, instead of arc

[cerveza_fiesta]

clip;211805 said:

a plot arc can be unrestictive, but a definitive story line, like the one in, say, Robert Jordan's books, create a narrow path along which the characters move, and doesn't let them stray, everything the characters do is because of the storyline, and it doesn't allow for deviation.

Maybe I should have used the words story line, instead of arc

I tried that Robert jordan series, man...I got tired of tugging braids and rictus grins pretty quick. In some of the books NOTHING HAPPENS! oops...spoiler there but seriously. nothing. happens.

Agree for sure that SE doesn't follow a perscribed storyline. MBotF is pretty much the opposite of that idea, and I think that's most of why I like it so much. I think what apt was getting at was identifying the smaller plots as part of the major arcs SE mentioned in the interview.

As counterpoint though, the definitive storyline doesn't have to be a bad thing. The Tolkien books (extreme example) had about as definitive storyline as you can get, but they still managed to have diverse characters, rich history, gripping plot etc... A lot of that probably has to do with its originality in the fantasy genre, and the fact that it's a very well-polished book literary-wise. Just kind of shows that the right author can make any situation into a good read.

[Clip]

It's true that Tolkien's books have a huge amount of background info, and a lot of depth and imagination on the part of the author, but I felt that many of the characters in tLotR lacked the depth they could have had if their actions weren't defined by the storyline, albeit, it is a gripping storyline, but the difference between LotR and MBotF is that in SE's books it is the characters that give the books depth, not the storyline.

[cerveza_fiesta]

clip;211988 said:

It's true that Tolkien's books have a huge amount of background info, and a lot of depth and imagination on the part of the author, but I felt that many of the characters in tLotR lacked the depth they could have had if their actions weren't defined by the storyline, albeit, it is a gripping storyline, but the difference between LotR and MBotF is that in SE's books it is the characters that give the books depth, not the storyline.

nice one. yer totally right there.

The characers there were cool, but I guess when you think about it, they're only cool because of what they did to make the ring go in the volcano. Not because they were deep and had interesting personalities.
SE's characters weave the story with their grossly unpredictable actions.

I guess the only overall storyline that you could say the series is restricted to is some kind of final conflict where everything goes to hell or everything gets resolved. But the mechanics of it and who will eventually be involved is anybody's gues (except SE's)

[Crow Clan Baby]

There was mention of three different "story arcs", with three of the books each being an entry point into one of the "arcs". Convergence of the arcs was also mentioned. Now, the books mentioned as entry points were GotM, DhG and MT. Taking that at face value, the obvious candidates for the "arcs" would be: (1) The Genabackis Campaign, (2) The Seven Cities Rebellion, and (3) The Edur Empire in Letheras.

Bringing it all together, that means that GotM and MoI are Genabackis; DhG, HoC and BH are Seven Cities; and MT and RG are Letheras (with RG beginning the convergence of arcs by introducing the Malazan army). I believe we'll see the rest of the convergence in the next book.

Al least, that's the way I've always looked at this particular point.

[Clip]

@Crow Clan Baby Well, that is true, except by now we've left the Malazan empire behind and the next two books are in places that we've never been before, as SE said in many interviews, so maybe now we'll see a convergence of the characters from these story arcs in the new location.

cerveza_fiesta;211997 said:

I guess the only overall storyline that you could say the series is restricted to is some kind of final conflict where everything goes to hell or everything gets resolved. But the mechanics of it and who will eventually be involved is anybody's gues (except SE's)

I was always under the impression that these books aren't actually going to end everything, that they're just a glimpse into the history of this world and not an entire history or an ending. I believe it was mentioned in some interviews?

[Dolorous Menhir]

clip;212088 said:

@Crow Clan Baby Well, that is true, except by now we've left the Malazan empire behind and the next two books are in places that we've never been before, as SE said in many interviews...

Aren't we going back to Genebackis in Toll the Hounds?

[Gem Windcaster]

I think it was the last two books that was on places not seen before...

[cerveza_fiesta]

clip;212088 said:

I was always under the impression that these books aren't actually going to end everything, that they're just a glimpse into the history of this world and not an entire history or an ending. I believe it was mentioned in some interviews?

I figured SE hinted enough about the eventual demise of the universe and a god pantheon war that some pretty major s**t is going down near the end of the series. These books have just been to awesome for a fizzle ending like the last episode of "the sopranos" (yes I said it...the final sopranos episode sucked hood's balls). Maybe not a complete end of an age and oblivion for all, but its pretty hard to deny that something is building up.

Crow Clan Baby;212043 said:

There was mention of three different "story arcs", with three of the books each being an entry point into one of the "arcs". Convergence of the arcs was also mentioned. Now, the books mentioned as entry points were GotM, DhG and MT. Taking that at face value, the obvious candidates for the "arcs" would be: (1) The Genabackis Campaign, (2) The Seven Cities Rebellion, and (3) The Edur Empire in Letheras.

You're definitely right, but I'd call those the storyline or arc origins. The present storylines are following the characters involved, such as the 14th going to Letherii continent and the Genbackis issues being pretty much fought out. That's a useful definition of the arcs though...because it encompases most of the subplots involved with each. I'd still add an "ancient history" arc as a possible 4th arc, just because there's a lot of interrelated past happenings that also affect the present situations...especially the pantheon war.

[Clip]

Well, those have been the general arcs for the all the books up to RG, and including TtH, but everything is going to be different in the last two books, so it could be that all those arcs are going to converge onto an entirely new arc, one with a very violent end

oh, and I meant to say that last two, not the nekt two back there

[cerveza_fiesta]

oh man I hope so...whatever it is, it won't be what we expect for sure. A huge gathering of armies on two opposing sides with a huge uber-clash would be a cool read, but disappointing as hell for MBotF.

I'm guessing the storylines will just mix with some incredibly complicated game of subversion, tactics, positioning and vying for power with a lot of gods and people getting screwed over, though I doubt there'll be anything as final as the ending to LotR.

[Mentalist]

heh.... with all the misdirecton and crazyness going on by master manipulators (CG, ST, gods-know-who-else), the ending will be stunning. And confusing as hell. And we'll probably spend another 2 years once "The Crippled God" is out speculating on who won and how is the world of Malaz likely to change as a result. Since we're simply seeing a slice of history, we should assume that the world will live on. as to how--we will all end up making that up ourselves.