[cerveza_fiesta]

Ok, so Karsa is resistant to magic in all forms...make that pretty much immune.

Its because the blood oil he used to drink / rub in to his sword (that sounds dirty..haha) is somehow related to otataral right? I'm pretty sure that was mentioned awhile back...that the otataral in the oil has completely pervaded his body through contact and absorption, much like Adjunct Lorn and her sword making her immune to healing etc...

So how is Karsa able to resist the letherii magic, like the part where he gets bored at the champions compound and decides to go roaming about until somebody gets in his face and just strides through the wards that should have killed him.

Isn't otataral only supposed to make you immune to house magic, while leaving you still vulnerable to hold magic? I'm not totally done RG, and maybe its mentioned, but its something I've been wondering.

If it's just a convenient omission to increase the coolness factor of Karsa, I'm totally fine with that...just wondering.

[Flawed]

Well Blood oil is a condensed form of Otteral i believe and so just that much more potent.

As you have said he has been absorbing that stuff for 80 years or whatever and so has built up a good immunity to normal House Magics etc. I think it will lend him some immunity against Hold magic but coupled with the fact that he's now walking round with a Warren for a sword and is probably his own Warren by his own right i think we can safely assume that he is covered from most attacks.

They make a big thing about his disregard for rules and Gods and general power. Perhaps the above, coupled with absolute obstinance = impervious to magics?

Who knows. What i do know is if Karsa came up to me demanding this and that, id poke him good in the eye.

" WITNESS THAT! "

[cerveza_fiesta]

Flawed;209855 said:

Well Blood oil is a condensed form of Otteral i believe and so just that much more potent.

As you have said he has been absorbing that stuff for 80 years or whatever and so has built up a good immunity to normal House Magics etc. I think it will lend him some immunity against Hold magic but coupled with the fact that he's now walking round with a Warren for a sword and is probably his own Warren by his own right i think we can safely assume that he is covered from most attacks.

They make a big thing about his disregard for rules and Gods and general power. Perhaps the above, coupled with absolute obstinance = impervious to magics?

Who knows. What i do know is if Karsa came up to me demanding this and that, id poke him good in the eye.

" WITNESS THAT! "

yeah, I guess he's basically ascendant, but that doesn't help the other ascendants...they still can get pwnd by magic and all that. Plus its said outright more than once that otataral has no effect whatsoever on the elder magic of holds.

I was thinking the same as you about the outright disregard. There's a lot of talk by hedge when he's cruising around with Emroth (pre-blowing her up) about "manifestations of the will". Maybe Karsa's immunity to all magic is just an extension of his otataral-based house-magic immunity derived entirely from his will. His obscenely strong, unflinching and usually comical will.

[Flawed]

Agreed, but if he try's it with my missis he'll get a kick in the Goolies!

[cerveza_fiesta]

Flawed;209865 said:

Agreed, but if he try's it with my missis he'll get a kick in the Goolies!

"WITNESS ME WITH YOUR WIFE....WITNESS!!!!!, but only if you're into that sort of thing"

--Karsa Orlong

[Dolorous Menhir]

This was explained in BH.

Someone (I think it was the Destriant of the Grey Helms), said that the TTT of old had sometimes produced individuals who had a "Toblakai warren," a personal warren of great strength. He detected this warren on the Silanda, in the room where Karsa had killed Binadas long before.

This is the source of Karsa's invulnerability to magic. The blood-oil (which is just Otataral in a different form) will also have been a factor, certainly towards the start of Karsa's career of destruction, but it seemed to be clear that the "Toblakai warren" would increase in strength, and Karsa's certainly has.

That is why he is capable of surviving the magic of the Elder Warrens and Holds. For example he survives Binadas, who seemed to be a pure KE user, or as close to one as the modern Edur have, and he walked through the Tellan wards around the captive Jaghut Aramala in HoC. He was also unaffected by the massive Edur magic strike against the Malazan fleet in BH - Samar Dev says the magic deadened the air and seemed to destroy life, but Karsa remained untroubled and vital. Otataral alone cannot explain these events.

The Toblakai warren seems to be a passive defence rather than an active source of power. By which I mean, Karsa does not toss around fireballs or open portals. He simply shrugs off almost every magic attack with little or no impact on him. I'm not sure if he gains any other benefits from it (endurance or strength, perhaps, though Karsa already has those in abundance).

edited for clarity

[cerveza_fiesta]

Dolorous Menhir;209870 said:

This was explained in BH.

Someone (I think it was the Destriant of the Grey Helms), said that the TTT of old had sometimes produced individuals who had a "Toblakai warren," a personal warren of great strength. He detected this warren on the Silanda, in the room where Karsa had killed Binadas long before.

This is the source of Karsa's invulnerability to magic. The blood-oil (which is just Otataral in a different form) will also have been a factor, certainly towards the start of Karsa's career of destruction, but it was seemed to be clear that the "Toblakai warren" would increase in strength, and Karsa's certainly has.

That is why he is capable of surviving the magic of the Elder Warrens and Holds For example he survives Binadas, who seemed to be a pure KE user, or as close to one as the modern Edur have, and he walked through the Tellan wards around the captive Jaghut Aramala in HoC. He was also unaffected by the massive Edur magic strike against the Malazan fleet in BH - Samar Dev says the magic deadened the air and seemed to destroy life, but Karsa remained untroubled and vital. Otataral alone cannot explain these events.

The Toblakai warren seems to be a passive defence rather than an active source of power. By which I mean, Karsa does not toss around fireballs or open portals. He simply shrugs off almost every magic attack with little or no impact on him. I'm not sure if he gains any other benefits from it (endurance or strength, perhaps, though Karsa already has those in abundance).

Really? Sweet...I must have missed that part in BH (more likely forgot). So his warren shields him somehow.

So since toblakai are somehow related to the Imass, does that mean that his magic could be Tellann or something closely related? Since tellann is elder, it could explain its effectiveness at defence vs. the holds.

Maybe he's got a dual-defence, with the otataral taking care of the houses and his warren taking care of the holds...gods, Karsa's character is so ridiculously awesome sometimes...

[Tarsonis]

I really like how Karsa has turned out so far. He was a bit boring when he was a bloodthirsting barbarian through and through.. a lot more fun lately!

As for his magic resistance it's hard to say where his willpower or the blood oil residue is responsible for it.. sometimes it seems one, sometimes he doesn't even feel it. I'm guessing the blood oil provides partial protection against the holds (given the derivates like Thyr etc are related to their elder counterparts) but that he just mentally shrugs it off as well, augmented in some ascendant mumbo jumbo way no doubt.

[Dolorous Menhir]

cerveza_fiesta;209875 said:

Really? Sweet...I must have missed that part in BH (more likely forgot). So his warren shields him somehow.

So since toblakai are somehow related to the Imass, does that mean that his magic could be Tellann or something closely related? Since tellann is elder, it could explain its effectiveness at defence vs. the holds.

Toblakai related to the Imass? That's a big claim - the origins of the TTT are unexplained, but they are not clear descendants of any earlier species, and were contemporaries of the living Imass.

Sticking more closely to the topic, there is no reason to link this Toblakai warren and Tellan.

Interesting question: Did Bellurdan also use this Toblakai warren?

If so, he'd definitely found a way to use it offensively.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Dolorous Menhir;209878 said:

Toblakai related to the Imass? That's a big claim - the origins of the TTT are unexplained, but they are not clear descendants of any earlier species, and were contemporaries of the living Imass.

Sticking more closely to the topic, there is no reason to link this Toblakai warren and Tellan.

Interesting question: Did Bellurdan also use this Toblakai warren?

If so, he'd definitely found a way to use it offensively.

Yeah, sorry bout that. You're right. Not related to Imass...just there around the same time as Imass were flesh. But since they were there at the same time and purportedly possessed a warren, I guess its elder. Not tellann, but elder nonetheless. Maybe earth or spirit based?

Found these bits on Encyclopedia malazica:

============

'The Teblor were long fallen from Thelomen Toblakai. Mirrored reflections in flesh only. Kneeling like fools before seven blunt-featured faces carved into a cliffside. Valley dwellers, where every horizon was almost within reach. Victims of brutal ignorance - for which no-one else could be blamed - entwined with deceit...'(HoC, UK MMPB, p.354)

============

'Toblakai. A name of past glories, of a race of warriors who had stood alongside mortal Imass, alongside cold-meined Jaghut and demonic Forkrul Assail.'(HoC, UK MMPB, p.354)

Leoman: 'Your(Karsa's) kind walked this earth when the T'lan Imass were still flesh. From your blood came the Barghast and the Trell. You are Thelomen Toblakai.'(HoC, UK MMPB, p.262-3)

==============

'The Warrens of the Imass are similar to those of the Jaghut and the Forkrul Assail – Elder-, blood- and earthbound –'(GotM, UK Trade, p.204)

================

[Shurque's biatch]

And here I thought is was some funky high from the yellow sun...

[Aptorian]

Dolorous Menhir;209878 said:

Interesting question: Did Bellurdan also use this Toblakai warren?

If so, he'd definitely found a way to use it offensively.

Did we actually see Bellurdan do any magic? His powers could be attributed to being a thelomen shaman, warlock or what ever the giant barbarians call their magic wielders.

What I'd like a explanation of in the up comming books is how the TTT went from being around 6 meters tall (perhaps) to a puny 8 feet.

[Trotts]

Quote

From your blood came the Barghast

So the Barghast are Imass+TTT?

[Seed]

I think they just evolved shorter over a long time they are an old old race. The biggest threats they would have faced would be the forkrul and the chemaille (or even urkos giant dinosaurs depending on how old they are as a race). Once the Forkrul retreated into their enclaves or other realms or were wiped out in one of their many peace adjudications, and the chemaille were mostly wiped out (or retreated to enclaves off the beaten track as well) they probably stopped picking mates based on size and settled down into civilisation more seriously, living in close cities probably encouraged breeding to smaller sizes, less food available as the populations increase, smaller people have smaller appetites. Hmm if they had to take to the seas during the end of the ice age, living in boats with the Imass would have encouraged further selection of smaller more dextrous mates from the available partners. More time passes during the diaspora and they begin breeding with the imass to get barghest and the size drops again and so on etc etc.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Trotts;210066 said:

So the Barghast are Imass+TTT?

They are.

Aptorian;210053 said:

Did we actually see Bellurdan do any magic? His powers could be attributed to being a thelomen shaman, warlock or what ever the giant barbarians call their magic wielders.

What I'd like a explanation of in the up comming books is how the TTT went from being around 6 meters tall (perhaps) to a puny 8 feet.

From the wiki, the only bit describing what might be Bellurdan's magic that I know of.

Quote

"...twin balls of blue fire raced upwards from the centre hill."


- sorcery launched from central hill during assault on Moon's Spawn. Not consistent with A'Karonys, so this is either Nightchill or Bellurdan's magic. It may even have been one ball from both. (UK mmpb p.75)

[Binder of Demons]

Wasn't the quote from the book about Toblakai magic that individuals "could become something of a warren unto themselves". This doesn't necessarily mean that there is a specific Toblakai warren.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Binder of Demons;210137 said:

Wasn't the quote from the book about Toblakai magic that individuals "could become something of a warren unto themselves". This doesn't necessarily mean that there is a specific Toblakai warren.

Yeah, that's right. I wonder how that would fit into the magic resistance though. Perhaps if he's a warren unto himself, he's just naturally shielded from attacks designed to kill a normal mortal.

I'm sticking with the "convenient omission" theory I had earlier. It certainly makes a very cool character waaaaay cooler for him to be completely impervious and immune to one of the absolute driving forces the malazan world. It makes him much more able to do unexpected things to keep the story interesting.

[q21]

Its been pointed out alreday that some of the toblakai can become a warren unto themselves and that those warrens are not necesarily the same. My theory (and bear in mind that it is just a theory) is that Karsa's warren is empty (or at least started that way) and every time he comes into contact with something mystical its gets sucked into that warren. Magic gets absorbed and souls which should go to Hood get trapped. Thats why magic doesn't work on him and many characters mention how he seems to have spirits following him around.

It also seems that he knows how to use those spirits when he needs to. He used them, and a few donations from other people, to get to the Crippled God's island.

[Called-by-the-Voices]

Yeah... This magic-immunity makes Karsa quite cool, but... Ebron took him out in HoC with a quite mundane spell..
So, he dodges Elder and Hold sorcery, and a Malazan Marine Mage can take him out with a simple spell? Hmm....

[ElT]

It wasn't exactly a mundane spell... Just shaped differently, and therefore more fine tuned, and precise. The other spells were meant to annihilate, and this only captured him.

Or, perhaps his Toblakai warren is the opposite of Otataral, it absorbs Elder Magic.. But doesn't Warren magic... And the Warren magic has been nullified by the Otataral coursing through his veins.