[ShadowOwl]

Question - if the KCCM created the Jaghut as slaves, and the Jags then rebelled, how did they escape the control of the powerful KCCM?

Assumption - KCCM are lizard-like, they will not like the cold (they do live below ground or in skykeeps in controlled temperatures), so using sorcery based on cold and ice may be the one thing that would incapacitate them.

Theory -The leaders of the Jaghut rebellion (Hood and Gothos) have help from an Elder god, Mael (water = ice) to ascend and create the Hold of Ice as something to help them free the Jaghut from the KCCM.

Possibly How - The Jaghut don't have souls because it took the power of all their souls to ascend Hood. He would then become the King of the Hold of Ice and be responsible for all those souls whose bodies surround his throne. But he'd have to sit on the throne forever.
Non-Jaghuts who had souls, in dying, would be caught up in the sorcery and their souls gravitate to Hood. He then became the God of Death as he would be known, mentioned (Hood this and Hood that) and sort of 'worshipped' by those dying = godhood. Who better to be King of Death than someone whose people would never come to him in death as they had no souls to pass over. Then Gothos does his ritual, resulting in Hood's soul leaving his body on the throne of ice and going to reside in the House of Death as king.

In the meantime, Gothos would become the ascendant mage of the Ice Hold, and be responsible for the sorceries needed to maintain the hold and the OP warren. Not being bound like Hood, he could travel anywhere using that warren. I think his ritual sorcery that sealed death out of the holds is what caused Hood to leave for the House of Death and for himself to leave for SD to drop off the Scabby Finnest, then to the House of the Azath where he must reside until he could resolve what he did.

At that point there was no active representative of the Hold of Ice and Omtose Phellack began to lose strength (takes a long time of course).
From the Azath Deadhouse it is Gothos final job to use the Azath to create a new Azath house for the Holds to replace the one that died and to change the old Azath into a true Hold of Death for Hood, thus completing the circle.

[Imperial Historian]

Hmmm... I know I've not been around all that much for a while, but why is the theory that the jaghut were created by the KCCM/slaves of the KCCM being thrown about so much recently?

The theory that the toblakai may have been created by KCCM by genetic manipulation from jaghut/imass has been floating around for a while, and there seems to be some merit to that (heh, though I'm probably a bit biased on that one, it being one of my pet theories), but the jaghut have been pretty much established as being malaz natives along with the imass. And they have never really been reffed as slaves to the KCCM, only as like the imass to the jaghut, which can equally validly be read to as insignificant savages to be crushed at a whim by KCCM.

On topic, Hood being jaghut is one of those things like traveller being dassem, and cotillion and kel being the emperor and dancer in the early books, that SE dances around incessantly but never explicitly states, but is as close to fact as the theories on this board get.

As to Hood being the Jaghut on the ice throne... that ones not so explicit, and I think not as concrete, after all when Raest refers to Hood as the death wanderer, hes not particularly referring to him as a powerful being, wheras referring to the jaghut who sits on the ice throne would seem to demand more respect (though admitedly hood could have gained the throne after raests entombment), that said I think it's still possible that Hood is the jaghut on the ice throne, but I think it's also likely he's someone else completely.

[ch'arlz]

Imperial Historian;210308 said:

On topic, Hood being jaghut is one of those things like traveller being dassem, and cotillion and kel being the emperor and dancer in the early books, that SE dances around incessantly but never explicitly states, but is as close to fact as the theories on this board get.

Tayschrenn meets Shadowthrone at Mock's Hold in the Epilogue of The Bonehunters (p.1199ff ukmmpb) and addresses him alternately as Emperor and Shadowthrone. Also, Shadowthrone says "This empire was mine!" to which Tay responds, "Laseen now rules.... Unless you are planning a triumphant return." Not sure how that could be more explicit, IH.

-ch'arlz

[Dolorous Menhir]

ch said:

Tayschrenn meets Shadowthrone at Mock's Hold in the Epilogue of The Bonehunters (p.1199ff ukmmpb) and addresses him alternately as Emperor and Shadowthrone. Also, Shadowthrone says "This empire was mine!" to which Tay responds, "Laseen now rules.... Unless you are planning a triumphant return." Not sure how that could be more explicit, IH.

-ch'arlz

He means that before the explicit link was made in DG, via Apsalar's memories, we had tons of evidence relating to Shadowthrone's identity.

GotM was packed with subtle and not-so subtle hints that Shadowthrone & Cotillion were Kellanved & Dancer. If you read that book closely and really thought it through, you would have made the connection. (I didn't, but it is so obvious in the rereading. The first poem, the second thing you read, spells it out clearly. There is more: Dujek and Tattersail all but say it to each other at one point).

Sure it was made explicit in DG with Apsalar's memories, but IH is saying that Dassem=Traveller & Hood=Jaghut are conjectures that are just as well supported at this point as Kellanved=Shadowthrone was at the start of DG, and can be considered verified.

Think about it this way - it would be far more incredible now to suddenly find out that Dassem isn't Traveller, or that Hood isn't a Jaghut.

[Aptorian]

ShadowOwl;210174 said:

Theory -The leaders of the Jaghut rebellion (Hood and Gothos) have help from an Elder god, Mael (water = ice) to ascend and create the Hold of Ice as something to help them free the Jaghut from the KCCM.

There's some truth in that Mael helped fashion the Lether Iceage. The five Andii mages in Andara ramble on a lot but claims that for Gothos to be able to fashion that much water in to ice there had to be some kind of... blessing or what ever from Mael.

There rest of it I think is just crazy theories

ShadowOwl;210174 said:

Possibly How - The Jaghut don't have souls because it took the power of all their souls to ascend Hood. He would then become the King of the Hold of Ice and be responsible for all those souls whose bodies surround his throne. But he'd have to sit on the throne forever.

I thought it was (clearly) stated in RG that the reason to why the Jaghut don't have souls, or at least that the souls don't act like normal souls, is that the Jaghut simply didn't believe in them. The Jaghut simply go into oblivion if and when they pass on.

This would of course be after they discovered who and what their gods really were and that would be why their "deathbridge" place in BH was lost in time.

Sort of like how it's said we've killed our gods because we stopped believing in them.

[Clip]

Sorry, I may have missed something, but has it been established who the Jaghut gods are, or rather, were?

[Aptorian]

clip;210872 said:

Sorry, I may have missed something, but has it been established who the Jaghut gods are, or rather, were?

Probably the elder gods and other ascendants of that age. The gods of the holds or perhaps even earlier the wandering elements.

I think the point is, that like Gothos remarks in the prologue of RG, that the Jaghut at some point realised what the gods were all about and much like the Malazan civilization they stopped actually following any gods. Rather giving them the attention and offering they were due, to not piss them off but otherwise turning their back on the worship of gods.

This is of course just random speculation.

[Rowan Redwing]

I will say this in order to play "Devil's Advocate." Could Hood really be the jaghut that sits on the Throne of Ice? This is my reasoning. All gods are ascendants right? Kellanved and Dancer were both supposed to have been killed by Surly. Their bodies were never found, neither was Dassem Ultor's. Kellanved became Shadowthrone, Dancer became Cotillion, and Dassem Ultor became Dassembrae or Traveller. In all three cases the bodies were lost, thus indicating that when ascending the physical body is taken with. Assuming that this is correct, the jaghut body found on the Throne of Ice, could not be Hood, because the body is still there, and ascendants take their physical bodies with them.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Rowan Redwing;211157 said:

I will say this in order to play "Devil's Advocate." Could Hood really be the jaghut that sits on the Throne of Ice? This is my reasoning. All gods are ascendants right?

No. Obvious example - the Elder Gods are not ascendants.

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Kellanved and Dancer were both supposed to have been killed by Surly. Their bodies were never found, neither was Dassem Ultor's.

Dassem didn't die. Hence, no body.

Quote

Kellanved became Shadowthrone, Dancer became Cotillion, and Dassem Ultor became Dassembrae or Traveller. In all three cases the bodies were lost, thus indicating that when ascending the physical body is taken with.

Don't agree. Dassem has never died - his "death" at Y'Ghatan was a cover. He was injured, but not mortally. So there was no body to find. Anyway, it's likely that Ultor was already an ascendant by then - he was already Dessembrae at the time of his "death". There's no reason to connect the time when he vanished from public view and the point at which he became an ascendant.

It's not 100% clear what happened to Dancer & Kellanved, but the popular story was that their bodies ended up in the sea. I'm not sure if they died at all in the course of their ascension, though that was certainly the impression in the early books.

Quote

Assuming that this is correct, the jaghut body found on the Throne of Ice, could not be Hood, because the body is still there, and ascendants take their physical bodies with them.

Now we get to the important point. There are two distinct usages of "ascendant" in the series. The first is simply as a word interchangeable with "god" or "powerful being" (this usage is often seen in the glossaries). The second denotes a being that has undergone a transition from weak mortal to powerful immortal.

I think the second meaning only applies to humans. What does it mean to talk of Jaghut ascendants? Or KCCM ascendants? Or Tiste Andii ascendants? They were born with their power. They did not acquire it over a lifetime in the manner that Kellanved did.

I don't think it's right to talk about a Jaghut ascending in the same way that we talk about a human ascending. So your point about the body of the Jaghut remaining on the Throne doesn't have any bearing at all.

Did that make any sense? I felt like I rambled a bit.

[Rowan Redwing]

Dolorous Menhir;211159 said:

No. Obvious example - the Elder Gods are not ascendants.



Dassem didn't die. Hence, no body.



Don't agree. Dassem has never died - his "death" at Y'Ghatan was a cover. He was injured, but not mortally. So there was no body to find. Anyway, it's likely that Ultor was already an ascendant by then - he was already Dessembrae at the time of his "death". There's no reason to connect the time when he vanished from public view and the point at which he became an ascendant.

It's not 100% clear what happened to Dancer & Kellanved, but the popular story was that their bodies ended up in the sea. I'm not sure if they died at all in the course of their ascension, though that was certainly the impression in the early books.



Now we get to the important point. There are two distinct usages of "ascendant" in the series. The first is simply as a word interchangeable with "god" or "powerful being" (this usage is often seen in the glossaries). The second denotes a being that has undergone a transition from weak mortal to powerful immortal.

I think the second meaning only applies to humans. What does it mean to talk of Jaghut ascendants? Or KCCM ascendants? Or Tiste Andii ascendants? They were born with their power. They did not acquire it over a lifetime in the manner that Kellanved did.

I don't think it's right to talk about a Jaghut ascending in the same way that we talk about a human ascending. So your point about the body of the Jaghut remaining on the Throne doesn't have any bearing at all.

Did that make any sense? I felt like I rambled a bit.

"Dassem didn't die."

That is never certain, so it may support my point. Baudin was quite dead before he became knight of high house death, the second seguleh we do not know about.

"Obvious example - the Elder Gods are not ascendants."

They are Elder Gods and may be an exception to this. Noone expected K'rul to die before becoming a god. On the other hand Treach did. He became ascendant, then died again and took Fener's place.

"It's not 100% clear what happened to Dancer & Kellanved, but the popular story was that their bodies ended up in the sea. I'm not sure if they died at all in the course of their ascension, though that was certainly the impression in the early books."

This is true, which I meant to say in my last post, but most people say that they died.

"Now we get to the important point. There are two distinct usages of "ascendant" in the series. The first is simply as a word interchangeable with "god" or "powerful being" (this usage is often seen in the glossaries). The second denotes a being that has undergone a transition from weak mortal to powerful immortal."

As to this I don't think it is a big distinction. True, people likse Anomander Rake and Calladan Brood, are ascendant, but neither has ever had to die. They both retain their original body of flesh. But none of them have left their physical body behind. All ascendants, that have become ascendants, have either been alive, or taken there physical bodies with them. Can you think of any that have not?

[Rowan Redwing]

Dolorous Menhir;211159 said:

No. Obvious example - the Elder Gods are not ascendants.



Dassem didn't die. Hence, no body.



Don't agree. Dassem has never died - his "death" at Y'Ghatan was a cover. He was injured, but not mortally. So there was no body to find. Anyway, it's likely that Ultor was already an ascendant by then - he was already Dessembrae at the time of his "death". There's no reason to connect the time when he vanished from public view and the point at which he became an ascendant.

It's not 100% clear what happened to Dancer & Kellanved, but the popular story was that their bodies ended up in the sea. I'm not sure if they died at all in the course of their ascension, though that was certainly the impression in the early books.



Now we get to the important point. There are two distinct usages of "ascendant" in the series. The first is simply as a word interchangeable with "god" or "powerful being" (this usage is often seen in the glossaries). The second denotes a being that has undergone a transition from weak mortal to powerful immortal.

I think the second meaning only applies to humans. What does it mean to talk of Jaghut ascendants? Or KCCM ascendants? Or Tiste Andii ascendants? They were born with their power. They did not acquire it over a lifetime in the manner that Kellanved did.

I don't think it's right to talk about a Jaghut ascending in the same way that we talk about a human ascending. So your point about the body of the Jaghut remaining on the Throne doesn't have any bearing at all.

Did that make any sense? I felt like I rambled a bit.

"Dassem didn't die."

That is never certain, so it may support my point. Baudin was quite dead before he became knight of high house death, the second seguleh we do not know about.

"Obvious example - the Elder Gods are not ascendants."

They are Elder Gods and may be an exception to this. Noone expected K'rul to die before becoming a god. On the other hand Treach did. He became ascendant, then died again and took Fener's place.

"It's not 100% clear what happened to Dancer & Kellanved, but the popular story was that their bodies ended up in the sea. I'm not sure if they died at all in the course of their ascension, though that was certainly the impression in the early books."

This is true, which I meant to say in my last post, but most people say that they died.

"Now we get to the important point. There are two distinct usages of "ascendant" in the series. The first is simply as a word interchangeable with "god" or "powerful being" (this usage is often seen in the glossaries). The second denotes a being that has undergone a transition from weak mortal to powerful immortal."

As to this I don't think it is a big distinction. True, people like Anomander Rake and Calladan Brood, are ascendant, but neither has ever had to die. They both retain their original body of flesh. But none of them have left their physical body behind. All ascendants, that have become ascendants, have either been alive, or taken there physical bodies with them. Can you think of any that have not? Are there any ascendants that have left a physical body behind? Treach does not count because it never says that his tiger body was still there after he took Fener's place....

[Dolorous Menhir]

Rowan Redwing;211162 said:

That is never certain, so it may support my point. Baudin was quite dead before he became knight of high house death, the second seguleh we do not know about.

Those two examples are irrelevant. Not all members of HHDeath have to be dead (see: Gethol). Whiskeyjack and Dujek discussed the fact that Dassem did not die at Y'Ghatan in MoI. He never died.


To the rest of your remarks: you emphasise death as an important step in ascension. It is not. Focusing on that point is misleading you, I think. (Abyss' catchphrase - "there are many paths to ascension").

Forget dying. My distinction between the two ascensions was that the first involves no transition - individuals such as Rake and K'rul have always been ascendant. The second type does involve a transition, and the only group this second usage applies to (that we know of) is humans. Jaghut are part of the first group.

So, Jaghut do not "ascend" because they are born ascendant. Which means the fact that the corpse of Hood is still on the Throne of Ice tells us nothing.

[Aptorian]

Some points:

ascendant, isn't that just the common name for a divine entity? When you look in the glossary of the first books there's a ascendant list, I'm pretty sure EG's and younger ones figure along each other... or am I wrong?

Kellanved, Dancer and Dassem are like a few out of millions of ascendants. what happened or didn't happened to their bodies doesn't need be important. I thought the corpse of the jaghut (if it really is Hood) was just a poetic figure, marking Hoods transference from King of Ice to King of death and corpses.

Question what was the leader position in the Holds? Mortal Sword was the name of the Houses Knight. What was the name for a king then?

I'm pretty sure it's not useless to talk of Jaghut or Andii ascendants. A while ago I thought it might not matter because they are born powerfull but, rethinking

- The (two?) ascendant FA's representing Health and sickness ascended, and FA's are the thoughest thing around, knuckles is also FA and ascended. The Seregahl are ascendant TTT. Hood is, must be, ascendant Jaghut, Apsalar is an ascendant Imass... can't thin of anymore, but there's just so much we don't know about the holds and what went on back in the elder times.

[Rowan Redwing]

Aptorian;211170 said:

Some points:

ascendant, isn't that just the common name for a divine entity? When you look in the glossary of the first books there's a ascendant list, I'm pretty sure EG's and younger ones figure along each other... or am I wrong?

Kellanved, Dancer and Dassem are like a few out of millions of ascendants. what happened or didn't happened to their bodies doesn't need be important. I thought the corpse of the jaghut (if it really is Hood) was just a poetic figure, marking Hoods transference from King of Ice to King of death and corpses.

Question what was the leader position in the Holds? Mortal Sword was the name of the Houses Knight. What was the name for a king then?

I'm pretty sure it's not useless to talk of Jaghut or Andii ascendants. A while ago I thought it might not matter because they are born powerfull but, rethinking

- The (two?) ascendant FA's representing Health and sickness ascended, and FA's are the thoughest thing around, knuckles is also FA and ascended. The Seregahl are ascendant TTT. Hood is, must be, ascendant Jaghut, Apsalar is an ascendant Imass... can't thin of anymore, but there's just so much we don't know about the holds and what went on back in the elder times.

"Kellanved, Dancer and Dassem are like a few out of millions of ascendants."

Probably more like a few ten's if even hundreds. The Errant was ascendant no? As well as a god, where as, Ganoes Paran is his equivalent, (as master of the deck of Dragons, and not yet ascended. I am just speculating... Considering this, should not the first seguleh be ascendant also? Since the second is a servant of Hood/High House Death?

[Aptorian]

Rowan Redwing;211192 said:

"Kellanved, Dancer and Dassem are like a few out of millions of ascendants."

Probably more like a few ten's if even hundreds. The Errant was ascendant no? As well as a god, where as, Ganoes Paran is his equivalent, (as master of the deck of Dragons, and not yet ascended. I am just speculating... Considering this, should not the first seguleh be ascendant also? Since the second is a servant of Hood/High House Death?

How does the supposed second seguleh and soldier of Hood affect the First Seuleh?

The second seguleh doesn't have to be ascendant serve a position in a house.

[Mentalist]

ummmm........... (soo eager for spoilers)...
Regarding Kellanved, Dancer and Dassem--READ NoK!!!!!

Apt, you think Soliel and Poliel were FAs?

Also, Malazan Wiki is your friend: http://starvalddemel....com/Ascendancy

[Cougar]

In addressing the actual topic of the post; I can't see it, Hood as God of the Jaghut? I don't think so, Jaghut seem to be rationalist or to a degree Nihilists. Hood may well have been King, or Throne of Omtose Phellack/Ice Hold. I think this is implicit in Feather Witch's reading:

"upon the Throne of Ice sits Death, cowled and frost rimed, stealer of caring, to shatter the anxious shackles of mortal life. It is a gift, but a cold one" (MT p.32)

But not the Jaghut deity.

More generally I think that asendancy is more of a catch all term for beings of great power. The confusion arises I think because, Elder gods have not gone through the action of ascending they have not 'ascended' ie: they have not transcended mortal life and become imortal and powerful ( I think SE said this in one of Pat's interviews though not in so many words) they are simply powerful beings.

The second element is that I don't think that being ascendant means you have to fullfil certain criteria, therefore ascendants have a plethora of different characteristics which go to make them ascendant the term ascendant thus becomes a generalisation. The only commanalities seeming to be imortality or at the least an incredibly long life and specific supernatural and/or sorcerous powers. Some died before they ascended, some didn't; some are soletaken, others are not. The Bridgeburners have ascended, but quite what that entails we do not 100% know. Brood is acendant, but what characteristics does he share with Hedge, or Silchas Ruin, other than ass kicking power?

Also don't forget that the characters in the books often use terms eroneously, or state untruths as fact. No-one speaks with the voice of the author, and no-one not even Anomander Rake or Krul etc knows everything about Wu.

[Aptorian]

Rowan Redwing;211192 said:

"Kellanved, Dancer and Dassem are like a few out of millions of ascendants."

Probably more like a few ten's if even hundreds. The Errant was ascendant no? As well as a god, where as, Ganoes Paran is his equivalent, (as master of the deck of Dragons, and not yet ascended. I am just speculating... Considering this, should not the first seguleh be ascendant also? Since the second is a servant of Hood/High House Death?

Sorry I was generalising, I mean there's been millions of ascendants in Wu's history. There's probably no more than a hundred or more Ascendants walking around at one time. But Wu's history is looong and new ascendants pop up all the time... and are then killed

Quote

Apt, you think Soliel and Poliel were FAs?

This is an old discussion from BH. But yeah, I'm on the team that believes that, at least poliel, was a FA. The description sounds most like an FA. She just mutated to fit her aspect when she became one of the sisters.

[Locke Reaper]

If i'm not mistaken the Ganoes Paran has ascended. There was no angelic chiior to proclaim it but it was eluded too at the end of BH.

Again i don't think that all jughut were ascendant. Most had the ability to wield OP but that does not equal ascendant status. The nearest we get to a jughut ascendant is the hunteress in MT and maybe Gothos, along with the merry band of gethol as reist. but technically reist is a azath guardian.

[Aptorian]

Locke Reaper;212491 said:

If i'm not mistaken the Ganoes Paran has ascended. There was no angelic chiior to proclaim it but it was eluded too at the end of BH.

Again i don't think that all jughut were ascendant. Most had the ability to wield OP but that does not equal ascendant status. The nearest we get to a jughut ascendant is the hunteress in MT and maybe Gothos, along with the merry band of gethol as reist. but technically reist is a azath guardian.

Could you give us a quote to Paran perhaps being ascended? 'Cause my impression of the Master of The Deck is that The Master, and that is also Parans opinion, does well to stay low and humble. Otherwise ascendants or FAs for example are likely to start getting nasty.

It doesn't sound to me like Paran wants to be an ascendant at all, but maybe it just goes along with the territory, it didn't look like Coltain had much of a choise.

I don't think Jaghut are born ascendant anymore than KCCM matrons, FAs or TTTs were born ascendant. Jaghut are hime to OP and like the tiste they have a natural affinity to the realm. They're born magicwielders, not ascendant.

It's been something of a discussion whether Jaghut can even ascend. If they can ascend the obvious candidates would be Gothos and the Tyrants we've seen or heard of. But who needs to ascend when they are more powerfull than most ascendants in normal immortal mode.