[ShadowOwl]

In BH, Panek is talking to Cotillion about the dragons that Edgewalker tells stories about -the foolish ones, wise, living and dead ones. He says 'They all cast shadows Uncle. Into your realm. Every one of them. That's why there's so many prisoners.' Cotillion finally gets it and is stunned.

We've seen chained dragons in Shadow, dead ones in several places and warrens and in RG, a lot of dead ones in SD. So could the ones who just settled down and died in SD, be waiting for their cast shadows to be freed, so they could go thru the gate into the overflow warren and be re-enlivened like the Imass were?

If only their shadows are prisoners, what are the real part of them doing?

Or what else could that mean? What did Cotillion comprehend? Any theories?

[Jimmy]

I thought it was to do with Rake's sword? As in all the Prisoner's within the sword cast shadows into the the realm of shadow. As those dragons were there by Rake's hand.
I also tend to believe that edgewalker is Draconus's shadow.

[dolfanuk]

hmm? maybe draconus, but would an elder god try to rule a warren? i dunno i know osserc is linked with one, but just doesn't seem quite right.

i'm not doing a very good job of explaining myslef i guess i always figured that elder gods had warrens they didnt need to go and try to invade another

edgewalker stating that he had once triedto capture the throne of shadow

[Aptorian]

dolfanuk;206979 said:

hmm? maybe draconus, but would an elder god try to rule a warren? i dunno i know osserc is linked with one, but just doesn't seem quite right.

i'm not doing a very good job of explaining myslef i guess i always figured that elder gods had warrens they didnt need to go and try to invade another

edgewalker stating that he had once triedto capture the throne of shadow

It's a good question. It doesn't sound like Elder Gods should have such ambitions yet Edgewalker, who calls himself an elementalforce, which is believed linked to the Elder Gods, did try for the throne.

Could be Draconus. Could be Anyone really.

[Folken]

Osric isn't Elder in the true sense. He's just worshiped as one in Wu and its history. However he isn't an elemental force like the rest of them...or at least we believe the rest of them are elementals.

[Aptorian]

It's a bit confusing the question of Ossercs Elder Goodhood.

Is he as young as Rake? Does anyone remember someone saying he came from Kurald Thyrlan/Liosan at the times of or before the Scabby betrayal.

Because otherwise it's just as easily believable that Osserc really is old. He could be a elder god of the magnitude of say Mael, Elder god of the skies or even light. (Yes, I want Osserc to actually be Father Light) Making him elemental and perhaps lending another clue to why Rake couldn't kill him (The first one being they like the game).

On the other hand he could of course just be an old ascendant with no other ties to goodhood then that the Liosan started worshipping him. I still think the serc connection makes him more.

[Folken]

Well the Serc connection is simply the whole dragon connection that K'Rul started. Two dragons per warren and Osric is a half-blood...having drunk from/shagge with Tiam and all. And Rake is connected to KG the way Osric is to Serc...at least that's the impression I get.

Though no I highly doubt Osric is Father Light. The Liason are absolute in their worship of Osric but even they acknowledge that Father Light and Osric are two separate entities

[ShadowOwl]

Where does it say that all the dragons in Rake's sword cast shadows into the realm of Shadow? I must have missed that? Thanks!

ps - What about the ones not in Rake's sword?

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think Dragnipur is a big red herring in this discussion. There's no reason to connect it with the shadow realm. Dragnipur was made long after the three dragons from BH were imprisoned there, for example, and it has no strong connection to the Shadow Realm. It was made by Draconus and concerns the warren of darkness, Kurald Galain, not the warren of shadow.

[Jimmy]

All the warrens are linked ain't they?

Deragoth - Hounds of darkness, Hounds of shadow - Shadows of the hounds of darkness. I know that the Deragoth ain't really the hounds of darkness, but it suits my theory so I'm gonna run with it.

'That's why there's so many prisoners' A qoute from Panek. The only prisoners we've ever heard about is in dragnipur, besides the odd ones like Karsa and the like, but why would they cast shadows into the realm of shadow?

[ShadowOwl]

Near the beginning of Bonehunters there is an interesting conversation between Cotillion and chained dragons, who are definitely prisoners of Shadow. Also, Shadow Realm is described as a warren with eternally imprisoned creatures, (and all the prisoners in the Azath houses), so there's lots more than those in draginpur.
I was trying to figure out what the shadows of dragons being prisoners in Shadow meant that freaked Cotillion out.

[Vengeance]

Here is a question, were the dragons imprisioned in that shadow of shadow or in a fragment of Emurlahn, that we haven't seen yet.

[Jimmy]

Yep I thought about the Azath at work today as well, but there's not really that much azath.

Or are the prisoners the ones in the jade pieces, that Heboric freed?

[Mr.Warren]

The thing about the azath is that no one really knows dick about the azath, Cotillian and Shadowthrone would like to know and the nameless ones probably think they know, but in reality no one really knows, it was something said in Bone Hunters I think, that they [Cotillian and Sahdowthrone] had to become gods to map out the azath because it would take them longer than one mortal life span to figure it out or some such.

the warlock King had the right idea about the shadow warren though, using chaos like chains to bring the broken bits together, would have worked in my opinion, too bad he had to be a power hungry knob about it though., although just where and what Shadowthrone rules is still kinda vauge in a way

[Locke Reaper]

Shadowthrone is still the big question in this series for me. He is just abit to insane and wishy - washy not to be up to something. I think they inhabit the shadow realm because it was available and partly due to their nature.

I just think there fragment became a lot larger than they ever thought and I think Shadowthrone is digging through the layers and leaving the rope to cope with the entrance hall.

As for the shadows in their realm, we don't know what the original shadow realm was like but maybe the shorning ritual performed of thrull was a relic from the past, where the actual shorning was tearing the soul from the body and chaining it in the shadow realm while banishing the body to another world/realm.

Hope that makes some sense.

[Mr.Warren]

random thought, the smashing of the warren might have been like an arterial rupture for K'rul?

although are elder warrens part of K'rul? we know Starval Demelain is, its ment to be the first one, his heart is it not?

[Vengeance]

Oh I like this idea, could the arterial rupture have happened when the crippled god got called down. Was that the real reason that K'rul faded from veiw as a god. Maybe it takes the blood of several dragons and a shattering of a god to rupture his veins. Another thought could be that K'rul was able to finally come back because ST had brought together several pieces of Emurlahn and helped to slow his wound.

[ch'arlz]

Vengance;207311 said:

could the arterial rupture have happened when the crippled god got called down. Was that the real reason that K'rul faded from veiw as a god.

It's pretty clear that K'rul's fade was due to Kallor's curse. As I recall, he began to feel it almost immediately and welcomed it in a way.

-ch'arlz

[Imperial Historian]

I thought that bit with the they all cast shadows was fairly obvious, everything casts a shadow, and all shadows end up in the shadow realm, but the important thing is most people are moving around so their shadows, aren't very 'solid' I suppose is the word.

Now think about all the prisoners around in the world, jaghut and others under rocks imprisoned by the imass, those in the azath, and all the countless beings too powerful to die imprisoned in countless realms. These beings have been imprisoned for so long that their shadows acquire permanence of a sort, and so all the prisoners from all the realms find their shadow drawn and chained in shadow, so all prisoners anywhere can be found somewhere in the drifting warren of shadow, and somehow thanks to the nature of shadow they become really there, bound in shadow as well as their original place of imprisonment.

[Vengeance]

ch said:

It's pretty clear that K'rul's fade was due to Kallor's curse. As I recall, he began to feel it almost immediately and welcomed it in a way.

-ch'arlz

Yes I realize that, but in accordance with the curse could it not also be possible that perhaps his power also waned because of a ruptured arterial. I wasn't trying to say that Kallor's curse wasn't the reason. More, but that could be why he welcomed it (the curse) was because of the amount of power that it was taking him to be a god and to deal with the damage to an arterial. It was just a random thought.

Vengance