[Tomau]

There seem to be more immortal than mortal races in Malazan world! All the elder races (except Imass), Soletaken, D'ivers seem to be immortal. But immortality is so unnatural, so how many and why is there so many immortal races?

[Aptorian]

The founding races, magical creatures, and the extraterrestriel Tiste races seems to account for the immortal races.

The founding races on Wu were the Forkrul Assail, K'Chain CheMalle, Jaghuts... and the Eres'al? The Eres'al led to the Imass that led to the mortal races.

Of what I under stand the Immortal races are the:
Dragons, FA, Tiste and the Jaghut. Soletaken and D'ivers aren't born and therefor not a race. The TTT might be immortal but we haven't met one yet. The KCCM probably age, being not much more than drones, while the Matrons are immortal, but it's not sure since we know next to nothing about them (stuff revealed in the newer books, withstanding)

The mortal races are:
Humans, Bhargast, giant races, Morranth(sp?) those armoured people with the explosives, and probably more that all originate from the Imass. You could say that Eras'al gave birth to the mortal races, but whether the Eres'al themselves were mortal is unknown, but they probably were.

Unknown:
Trell, KCCM, Jhags,Deragoth: We don't know how long they live, but I doubt they're immortal, they just have long lifespans like the giant races.

[Mordain]

Trell definitely aren't immortal. The Nameless Ones 'enhanced' Mappo so he could live longer.

[Squint]

I'm pretty sure that the Jaghut are mortal with extreme longevity. I seem to recall SE slipping in a phrase somewhere (DG or MT maybe) making it seem like Gothos ages.

[Tomau]

Aptorian;206243 said:

The founding races, magical creatures, and the extraterrestriel Tiste races seems to account for the immortal races.

The founding races on Wu were the Forkrul Assail, K'Chain CheMalle, Jaghuts... and the Eres'al? The Eres'al led to the Imass that led to the mortal races.

Of what I under stand the Immortal races are the:
Dragons, FA, Tiste and the Jaghut. Soletaken and D'ivers aren't born and therefor not a race. The TTT might be immortal but we haven't met one yet. The KCCM probably age, being not much more than drones, while the Matrons are immortal, but it's not sure since we know next to nothing about them (stuff revealed in the newer books, withstanding)

The mortal races are:
Humans, Bhargast, giant races, Morranth(sp?) those armoured people with the explosives, and probably more that all originate from the Imass. You could say that Eras'al gave birth to the mortal races, but whether the Eres'al themselves were mortal is unknown, but they probably were.

Unknown:
Trell, KCCM, Jhags,Deragoth: We don't know how long they live, but I doubt they're immortal, they just have long lifespans like the giant races.

Way too many immortal races, in my opinion. Always thought that immortality is nature of gods (and ascendants in this case). To became a god is to be immortal, very powerful, worshiped...

Didn't say that Soletaken and D'ivers are a race, but that they also seem to be immortal. Take Kilava and Treach for example, who are from mortal race but lived for hundreds of thousands of years.

What does it Wu and TTT stands for?

[chill]

Tomau;206425 said:

What does it Wu and TTT stands for?

Wu is SE's world. TTT stands for Thelomen Thartheno Toblakai or something like that.

P.S. Fanovi iz lijepe naše... malo nas je, al nas ima:D

[Dolorous Menhir]

Wu is a stupid name that posters here have adopted for the Malazan world, since it annoying lacks an author-endorsed name. I really hate it though, probably for irrational reasons.

Let's try and summarise the races and what we know or can hazard about their longevity. An important thing to note here is that most characters we meet are extremely powerful, and may derive their longevity from their individual power than their membership of an immortal race. That said,

Tiste Andii - seem to be immortal. No natural lifespan has been hinted at that I can remember. They do age, Andarist was visibly ancient. But looking at it a different way, Andarist was the second oldest Tiste Andii ever, and he still hadn't died of old age. I can't make up my mind if that's a convincing argument or not.

Tiste Liosan - unknown, but I would speculate that they have a similar status to the Tiste Andii.

Tiste Edur - from my understanding of MT, (following does not contain MT story spoilers)

Spoiler

the Edur have an extremely long, but definitely limited, lifespan. It seemed clear that the Edur culture included people of all ages and people would definitely die of old age, after lifetimes that may reach into the thousands of years. I certainly did not get this sense of a finite life from any Tiste Andii character or group encountered. As for why the Edur don't have the immortal character of their Tiste cousins, I would speculate it is because they are a mixed, inferior race (or so the creation myths seem to suggest, if they are indeed reliable).

Jaghut - appear to be immortal, but with the important caveat that we have only ever met the insanely powerful few remaining Jaghut. For all we know, John Q. Jaghut had a short and miserable life, and not just because the Imass were determined to ensure it was so. Nevertheless, I think the Jaghut are another immortal race.

Jhag - Icarium is the only example we have information on. I think he can be safely considered a special case. He certainly is an immortal, even though not an Ascendant. (Pust described him as almost, but never quite, ascending. No doubt this is due to his memory problems).

TTT - unknown. We've only seen one genuine confirmed TTT, the demon-possessed body under a fort in HoC. Definitely a special case. As for all the different TTT-derivatives, they definitely seem to have finite lifespans. Karsa's grandfather was clearly not going to live forever, and although Mappo is another special case, his thoughts in BH (not a spoiler) make it clear that typical Trell also age and die.

Imass - also mortal, as the predecessors of humanity you would expect them to be. Bonecasters were Soletaken, and so if we can apply the same standards to them as human Soletaken seem to follow, they were immortal.

T'lan Imass - certainly immortal, though I can't help but think that's the wrong word for an undead race. Unmortal?

For'krul Assail - Calm certainly seemed to be unaffected by time after her however many thousand years under that slab. I would assert this race is also immortal.

KCCM - unknown, but I would speculate that the Matrons were immortal and the others, servant castes or whatever you want to call them, were not.

KCNR - unknown, but I would guess they were not immortal. They seemed to be a society of individuals that predated the Matron-drone system, and that suggests they were mortals.

Humans - mortal. Except for powerful individuals, as always. Count the Barghast and Moranth under "human" for this discussion.

Eres - definitely mortal. As Imass and human relatives, it only makes sense that way.

Dragons - presumably immortal. It seems a reliable rule, that powerful = immortal in this series. Tiam has even been described as repeatedly dying and resurrecting, which is a cut above the "immortal until you get killed" that all the other races enjoy.

[Kurt Montandon]

Dolorous Menhir;206508 said:

Wu is a stupid name that posters here have adopted for the Malazan world, since it annoying lacks an author-endorsed name. I really hate it though, probably for irrational reasons.

Er, Wu is an author endorsed name - I seem to recall that it was Erikson & ICE's nickname for their shared world.

It wasn't made up on this forum, in any case.

[Dolorous Menhir]

An interviewer said "does it have a name?" and SE responded along the lines of "we used to call it by Steely Dan song, but not any more." Something like that. He definitely did not say "we call it Wu, you should too."

Wu is a character in the books, from the chapter heading excerpts. Not the name of the world. It doesn't have one.

[Kurt Montandon]

Dolorous Menhir;206543 said:

An interviewer said "does it have a name?" and SE responded along the lines of "we used to call it by Steely Dan song, but not any more." Something like that. He definitely did not say "we call it Wu, you should too."

Wu is a character in the books, from the chapter heading excerpts. Not the name of the world. It doesn't have one.

From an older interview - "A name for the Malazan world? There was one, once, years ago. But only as a joke. Named after a doctor mentioned in a Steely Dan song, alliterative. Right now, no, there's no name for the world. Strange, isn't it?"

The doctor being Dr. Wu.

So ... I dunno. I'm both right and wrong.

I will say that it is kind of silly as a world name, but regrettably entrenched in this forum.

[Illuyankas]

I liked using Wu because it's faster than typing 'the Malazan world' and I'm lazy. Also, there's a Wu's Closet in MOI.

[Tomau]

I think there is no more TTT, just their weaker derivatives. In one place of the HoC is said that Teblor live about 400 years.
P.S. Pozdrav sunarodnjaku iz Dubrovnika!

[lokiman]

I cant remember what TTT stand for, I know it deals with the Toblekoi (probably misspelled), but i dont remember full name.

[Aptorian]

lokiman;206577 said:

I cant remember what TTT stand for, I know it deals with the Toblekoi (probably misspelled), but i dont remember full name.

Brood is that you?

Chill mentioned it above: Thelomen Thartheno Toblakai - And there are surely some TTT around, buried in Azaths, guarding stuff or living in secret places living of little people

About the concept of immortality being something limited and overpowered. Think of it like there was the elder times and the newer times. In the Elder Times the Gods were all powerfull and the creatures that walked the world were equally powerfull. Longlived or immortal, magical and hard as nails. Think of it, all the founders are descibed as notoriously hard to kill, Jaghut bodies need to be broken and crushed or else their soul will return, FAs can probably not even be broken, the TTT are all like Karsa and the KCCM, the giant raptor people... don't get me started.

Then the eres'al, perhaps the first mortal race, evolved during the time of the KCCM, into Imass the first prospering mortal race that build the First Mortal Empire. Pretty much all other mortal species we've met are ancestors of the Imass. So actually mortality is the quirk, remarkably succesfull in a time of brutal powers. In the New Times of the Houses, even the gods are fallible, as vulnerable as their worshippers. The world is dominated by the mortal races that has spread like vermin all over Wu. Still, one moon of the KCCM with a Matron on board could probably take out all of the mortal races in no time.

About the Wu thing, it's also being suggested that the world be called Burn after the goddess, but Wu is more fun.

[Vengeance]

Plus didn't the Jaghut tyrant in GOM say that Burn was a young god as far as he was concerned. That would lead me to believe that the world is a lot older then Burn. Plus I too like Wu. Nice break down on the evolution of the races.

[Imperium Corruo]

So what about the Segulah? I guess I place them with the mortal races, maybe even a branch of humanity. But really, they seem to be operating on a level that exceeds normal human capacity, at least the upper echelon that we have been exposed to anyway.

All hail The Puntative Army

[chill]

I believe the Seguleh are mortal humans. About their fighting skills, well, their entire society is based on swordplay, but given how little we know about them, there's a possibility of something supernatural in their origin. Hard to say.

[Dolorous Menhir]

chill;206743 said:

I believe the Seguleh are mortal humans. About their fighting skills, well, their entire society is based on swordplay, but given how little we know about them, there's a possibility of something supernatural in their origin. Hard to say.

I agree. The Seguleh are just people, who happen to be extraordinarily good fighters. They are a human ethnic group, like the Daru or the Dal Honese.

[SiriusL]

Dolorous Menhir;206782 said:

I agree. The Seguleh are just people, who happen to be extraordinarily good fighters. They are a human ethnic group, like the Daru or the Dal Honese.

You could go so far as to argue for natural selection of what would otherwise be superhuman traits. If they've been killing off all the weaker, slower, or otherwise physically disadvantaged people, you'd expect to start seeing more people with extraordinary traits. Eventually, it will get extreme, since those people will have children.

What do you think a Seguleh wedding ceremony looks like? :cool:

[Vengeance]

SiriusL;206812 said:

You could go so far as to argue for natural selection of what would otherwise be superhuman traits. If they've been killing off all the weaker, slower, or otherwise physically disadvantaged people, you'd expect to start seeing more people with extraordinary traits. Eventually, it will get extreme, since those people will have children.

What do you think a Seguleh wedding ceremony looks like? :cool:

Knives flashing, sudden scream, small thuds. Masks are off. yada, yada. Masks go back on, wife looks a husbands mask and laughs. Swords flash, divorce not an option. Very tricky affair.