[Oceao]

I don't really see nearly as many christians / jews / muslims / zoroastrians railing against atheists than I do of atheists railing on religious people.

Where is the outrage really at? Hit me with everything you've got, it'll be so awesome.

Am I just not going to the right sites?

in the original thread that i placed these observations, Illy said I'm lucky. Am I? I mean it would be really cool to be lucky, but i'm not really sure.

Are atheists really having a hard time? Tell me all about it. I want every detail.

And I can see how in some places - alright. Atheists will have their fucking hand chopped off or whatever... but in the UK? the US? Scandinavia? Germany? Maybe Amsterdam? Are you Aussie atheists really walking home from work shooting glances over your shoulder in fear of the Jesus Police?

Obviously, if that is the case, then - it is a horrible thing and should be stamped the fuck out. But from where I'm at, I'm not seeing it.

I sure as hell am seeing extremists of every walk yelling their retardation, but they hardly scream the lyrics for any majority.

And likewise when I see people just ramming themselves against religion. It isn't really that big of a deal. What the fuck fault is it of someone that might have a tendency toward a monotheistic / polytheistic / midgetranian belief system that rubs atheists in such a way that they need to constantly fucking scream about it? Are they being whipped? Show me the wounds.

And I don't want to hear about politics - that is an entirely separate argument. YES and SURE religion might be abused and maybe those whip marks are wrought by 'religious' people, but that does NOT equate a subjective belief system with the sort of fallacy that seems so common in modern thinking. If the whipped are going to cry, cry at the whipholders, not the group of people from which the whipper comes from, because I fucking promise you that the whipper is NOT a majority of that demographic.

Maybe I am lucky, fortunate - whatever. Then show me what I'm not seeing, help me learn. The argument seems to be that one system is bad because of y - and yet there is absolutely nothing else that can 'plus 2' a new system that is any different from what it is attempting to replace.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Between now and the 2008 political conventions, there will be discussion about the qualifications of presidential candidates -- their education, age, religion, race, and so on. If your party nominated a generally well-qualified person for president who happened to be …, would you vote for that person? - Gallup


Category For/Against (%)

Catholic 95 / 4

Black 94 / 5

Jewish 92 / 7

A woman 88 / 11

Hispanic 87 / 12

Mormon 72 / 24

Married for the third time 67 / 30

72 years of age 57 / 42

A homosexual 55 / 43

An atheist 45 / 53

[Oceao]

I'm really sorry but I do not understand what you mean.

[Koryk of the Seti]

americans place great stock in religion! that is what the poll is sayin. that they would rather have a black female(how likely is that?) president than an atheist president!!! i beleive religion has a terrible influance on the world! how many great wars where fought over it? how many billons died for there god/gods? i mean there is soo much wrong and evil in the world how can there be a controlling deity?? i however do not force my reasoning or beleifs upon anyone lse and i see it as wrong to openly critize people for the religion they practice or worse a different sect of the same religion! if religion kept people happy and peaceful like they preach then there would be no problem. but religion is constantly twisted for the speakers use! if someone wants a war how easier to start one than on religoius background??

oh and btw are u and atheist?? your first post isnt very clear to me but i havnt slept in 2 days so.......

[Folken]

They'd also rather elect someone that's been married three time, meaning this person has clearly failed in trying to keep a meaningful relationship with one human being and is probably a very bad judge of character and bad decision maker, to run the country simply because candidate y is an atheist, who may or may not be much better at running the country.

[Oceao]

two posts back to back regarding politics. alright - if I was born and raised outside the U.S. and was faced with trying to understand the country that seemed to have all the answers for everything - be it right and wrong or enterfuckingtainment tonight - I'd be a bit sketched out too.

What you're not grasping is that within this country there are people just like you that don't live on capitol hill, that are not in the senate, and that yes, maybe believe in something that is not what you were raised to believe. Now what does this mean? The climate of this forum, and many others, seems to be 'fucking condemnation' .

You should be waging war against American politicians if you feel you're not getting paid enough, NOT against Americans. we are already so fucking far beyond your lame fucking cnn news and global circuits - many areas are already far underway with vast re-localization of power and policies. You all fail if your view of the U.S. is as simplistic as some kind of sweeping theocracy.

and p.s. - none of that has anything to do with my intended point / post.

[Bottle]

You have too much hate.
Chillax

I don't see any athiests "railing on religious people" personally. Where do you live? As it probably depends on your locale.
As for this forum, well it's an Athiest majority I think. But discussion is for the most part civilised, if a little anti-religious.
(But only because we Non-believers have the better arguments haha.)

But seriously, write your posts with a little less anger and I think people will be more willing to talk to you.

[Tsundoku]

For me, the reason why we see/experience more atheists-bagging-religion than the reverse is that we're mostly from industrialised nations that have a democratically elected government and bugger-all religion.

Because the reverse situation barely has electricity, let alone teh interwebs.

Think about it: in our countries (except for parts of the USA), religious nutters are viewed as exactly that ... nutters. Even when a representative of a religious group calmly defends their faith/actions in a reasonable way, they're still fighting an uphill battle against the prevailing view.

Which is why, Oceao, you rarely experience the reverse situation. If you did, it's probably because you're probably living in some shitty backward country where a decent education is generally reserved only for wealthy males.

But I stop just short of saying " ... and that's why you should be damn grateful of the fact that all you ever hear is atheistic rants ... " because that'd be going a tad far, even for me.

Personally, I don't see too much of it around where I live because we Aussies are notoriously apathetic and laid back about such crap. Just too hot to get worked up about who has the "right" view. Unless it's about sports, of course.

Cheers,

La Sombra, teaches Realism 101

Cheers,

La Sombra

[ch'arlz]

Sombra;201842 said:

For me, the reason why we see/experience more atheists-bagging-religion than the reverse is that we're mostly from industrialised nations that have a democratically elected government and bugger-all religion.

I don't believe there is all that much atheists-bagging-religion, except for the "trend-of-the-week" hype accompanying new books by Dawkins and Hitchins and the fact that they give good telly. That will go away by the end of summer. Most atheists in my experience don't feel much need to proselytize about issues of faith.

[Hume]

May have something to with the an overal conservative dominated media base in the US and when any sort person like Dawkin's may arise, they are likely to make it sound like the atheists are more vocal then they really are.

I think there are something like 20 million atheists at least in the US anway, im sure they all feel quite repressed.

[ch'arlz]

Relax take it Easy;201847 said:

I think there are something like 20 million atheists at least in the US anway, im sure they all feel quite repressed.

I believe it's about 10% of the population, whatever that makes it. I don't feel repressed at all. I just get annoyed at teachers who tell my kids that "God says..." or "Jesus saves..." and I have to go through the whole "These people have a right to believe whatever they want and you'll have to make up your own mind but I think it's like believing in Santa Claus" shtick again.

[Tsundoku]

ch said:

I don't believe there is all that much atheists-bagging-religion, except for the "trend-of-the-week" hype accompanying new books by Dawkins and Hitchins and the fact that they give good telly. That will go away by the end of summer. Most atheists in my experience don't feel much need to proselytize about issues of faith.

It's a relative thing: "not much" as opposed to "virtually zero" is still "more".

Cheers,

La Sombra, "more" in a "less-is-more" way

[ch'arlz]

Sombra;201851 said:

It's a relative thing: "not much" as opposed to "virtually zero" is still "more".

I read your statement "we see/experience more atheists-bagging-religion than the reverse" to mean that more atheists rail against believers than believers rail against the godless heathen sure to fry in hell atheists. I think that's patently untrue.

[Tsundoku]

ch said:

I read your statement "we see/experience more atheists-bagging-religion than the reverse" to mean that more atheists rail against believers than believers rail against the godless heathen sure to fry in hell atheists. I think that's patently untrue.

Fair enough, but I think that's because you live in the USA. The rest of the western world has pretty much a "meh" attitude to religion. Which I believe I referenced previously.

Cheers,

La Sombra, "meh" about indifference

[Flawed]

ch said:

I read your statement "we see/experience more atheists-bagging-religion than the reverse" to mean that more atheists rail against believers than believers rail against the godless heathen sure to fry in hell atheists. I think that's patently untrue.

Agree, as without the Atheists or specific believers of their own, whomever is doing the ranting has nothing to set their own beliefs against.

The louder someone shouts, the more in need they have for themselves to prove to themselves they need to believe, even though their own fear & doubt is what makes them bellow like wounded rhino's.

The religious zealots generally have no other outlet for their indignation, that there could be other beliefs and mind sets out there which of course in turn proves that its all rubbish as if everyone has the one true calling then surely everything is it?

As if any of it actually matters.

[stone monkey]

So let me see your basic argument is that the more vocal atheists should shut the fuck up because you don't agree with them. That makes sense.

And you're not going to the right sites...really.

ps You're a US citizen, most of the rest us aren't; should you be in anyway surprised that we disagree with you on any number of things? Because IMO it would be somewhat naive of you if you did...

[ch'arlz]

stone monkey;201882 said:

ps You're a US citizen, most of the rest us aren't; should you be in anyway surprised that we disagree with you on any number of things? Because IMO it would be somewhat naive of you if you did...

You're assuming that U.S. citizenship in and of itself would put an individual at odds with everybody else here from other countries?

I disagree.

[Dolorous Menhir]

My first post was a demonstration of a simple fact:

by this measure, atheists are of a lower status in the US than Blacks, Latinos and even homosexuals (the "even" there reflecting the status of gays in the US, not my own biases).

This doesn't apply in other Western countries, I certainly don't feel discriminated against in the UK. The population of "de-facto" atheists in the UK is considerable, perhaps even a majority. Recent censuses have led to the description of the UK as a "pagan" country. By "de-facto" I include the non-religious, i.e. those who do not label themselves by any religious creed or only identify very weakly with a church, alongside the acknowledged atheists.

To make this debate clearer, perhaps you could be more specific about which atheists are railing against the religious to excess, Oceao. The only examples I can think of are the recent books by Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, among others. Are they your targets?

[Oceao]

Dolorous Menhir;201896 said:

My first post was a demonstration of a simple fact:

by this measure, atheists are of a lower status in the US than Blacks, Latinos and even homosexuals (the "even" there reflecting the status of gays in the US, not my own biases).

This doesn't apply in other Western countries, I certainly don't feel discriminated against in the UK. The population of "de-facto" atheists in the UK is considerable, perhaps even a majority. Recent censuses have led to the description of the UK as a "pagan" country. By "de-facto" I include the non-religious, i.e. those who do not label themselves by any religious creed or only identify very weakly with a church, alongside the acknowledged atheists.

To make this debate clearer, perhaps you could be more specific about which atheists are railing against the religious to excess, Oceao. The only examples I can think of are the recent books by Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, among others. Are they your targets?

I really haven't seen first hand evidence to support that measure, (atheists having low status in the US). Do you mean financially? In fact I've seen atheists command great respect, and rightly so, not because they're atheists, but because of intelligence and the work they do etc. I wasn't directing my rant at dawkins or anyone in particular - it was about the observation that atheists seem to cry a lot about religion, mock it, etc. while religious people don't really make that big of a deal about atheists. Just walk across most college campuses in the US.

Stone - It has absolutely nothing to do with what I do or don't believe, or what atheists do or don't believe. I just get tired of hearing atheists mock and ridicule religion like its their hobby to do so. If i saw more priests (moderate, mind you, which are I think the vast majority) screaming about atheists being evil or something, then I wouldn't complain. But I'm not seeing that or reading about it. What I am seeing and reading about is, well I've already said it. And I don't really see the point, its like kicking a puppy. Is it really that big a deal if an Amish family wants to do their thing? Why ridicule them for it?
edit - Amish is probably a poor example.

[ch'arlz]

Oceao;201907 said:

atheists seem to cry a lot about religion, mock it, etc. while religious people don't really make that big of a deal about atheists. Just walk across most college campuses in the US.

There are dozens of college campuses in the Washington DC area and I've walked across many of them in the 30+ years I've lived here. I don't recall ever seeing atheists crying aloud or mocking religion. Perhaps this phenomenon is localized to where you are?